HC Deb 05 December 1978 vol 959 cc1210-2
9. Mr. Raison

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a further statement on industrial relations in the National Health Service.

Mr. Ennals

I do not think I can usefully add to what I said in the debate on the Address on 2nd November and in replies to Questions from the hon. Members for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook), Walsall, North (Mr. Hodgson) and Eastleigh (Mr. Price) on 7th November.

Mr. Raison

Will the right hon. Gentleman now initiate discussions with the Health Service unions about the possibility of their members renouncing the right to strike in exchange for some form of index linking of their pay? Will he also take this opportunity to make clear that the right of industrial action does not extend to the right to take selective industrial action without loss of pay?

Mr. Ennals

Having put forward proposals for dealing with local disputes, which are now being considered by the Whitley Council, as a result of discussions with the Health Service unions and the leaders of the medical and nursing professions—proposals which have so far been warmly welcomed—I am shortly to have discussions with the leaders of the unions and of professions about ways in which we can minimise the danger of industrial action as a result of disputes related to pay and working conditions.

Mr. William Hamilton

What progress has my right hon. Friend made in his study of the very modest claim of the nurses for a 15 per cent. increase in their pay? Before he completes those studies, will he recognise that if he regards this as an exceptional case it will receive the unanimous support of the British people and a large section of this House?

Mr. Ennals

I know that there is enormous support in this House for the work done by nurses, and a great appreciation of their dedication and commitment. Nevertheless, I will not be drawn into making comments about a pay claim which has been submitted and which is being considered by my colleagues and me.

Mr. MacKay

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Birmingham ambulance drivers' dispute still continues despite the intervention of his Ministry? Will he make a statement today about what he intends to do to bring this dispute to an early conclusion, because it is causing a great deal of concern to many people in the medical world and elsewhere in Birmingham?

Mr. Ennals

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and others will be delighted to know that the men have returned to work today. There was roughly a five-hour negotiation last night, and as a result of further meetings this morning it was decided that work could be resumed.

Mr. Litterick

Will the Secretary of State now confirm that, contrary to press reports at the time, his Department has no evidence that any patients in National Health Service hospitals died as a result of the hospital engineers' dispute?

Mr. Ennals

I was satisfied that patients' lives were endangered by this dispute. However, there are no arrangements for recording industrial action as a cause of death and I certainly do not propose to institute records of this kind.

Mr. Litterick

You mean you are going to let the Tories go on telling lies about it.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I could not help hearing that remark. I believe that the hon. Gentleman used the word"lies ". I think that he asked the Minister whether he was telling lies again, and I must ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw.

Mr. Litterick

I did not say that, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman did not say that, I would be pleased if he would rise and say so.

Mr. Litterick

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I said nothing of the sort. I said nothing remotely resembling what you thought that I said.

Mr. Speaker

I am very relieved to have that assurance.

Dr. Vaughan

Will the right hon. Gentleman now tell us what steps he is taking to deal with the threatened 40 per cent. pay claim by the National Union of Public Employees? Is he aware that it is planning a strike for January?

Mr. Ennals

A pay claim has already been submitted, not only by NUPE but by other unions concerned with the ancillary services for the National Health Service. These matters are being properly considered within the Whitley Council. I shall not make any further comment at this stage, but, of course, the claim which has been submitted is a difficult one to tackle. However, I can assure the House that the Government will stand by their commitment to their pay policy.