§ Q3. Mr. MacKayasked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements on 17th November.
§ The Prime MinisterThis morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
§ Mr. MacKayBearing in mind the tragic deaths of which we have learned today, and bearing in mind, too, the chaotic and inadequate state of our firefighting services, will the Prime Minister spend a little time today considering whether he is still satisfied that the Home Secretary is capable of producing a quick and satisfactory solution to the negotiations with the firemen's union?
§ The Prime MinisterNegotiations with the Fire Brigades Union are being conducted by the local authorities, not by my right hon. Friend. They are acting within the pay guidelines which the Government have prescribed. Clearly, that is one of their difficulties. But I do not believe that all the figures about pay have yet got across, or, indeed, the figures of what would be received in gross pay by a number of firemen. That will have to be publicised pretty soon so that we have a better indication of how firemen compare with other industrial workers.
§ Mr. SpearingWill my right hon. Friend, on his way back to Downing Street, call at the European Movement in Whitehall Place and tell it that its statement last year that the historic decision for direct elections represents the first step towards the creation of a United States of Europe is incorrect? Although he said that the Assembly would have the same powers as it has now, does not my right hon. Friend agree that it has increased powers since July over the budget and, therefore, his statement of last summer is perhaps not as correct as it might have been?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir; I do not intend to call at Whitehall Place on my way back to No. 10. I have a rather busy schedule. As regards the statements about the development of the European 761 Community, I think that I have made my position clear, including the statement I made at the Lord Mayor's Banquet last Monday.
§ Mr. Gordon WilsonWill the Prime Minister take time today to read the evidence of the TUC to the Energy Commission disapproving of the over-rapid depletion of the offshore oil resources? Will he, as a consequence and in view of the remarks in that evidence, call a meeting with the Secretaries of State for Industry and for Energy to discuss the possibilities of using oil for petrochemical investment, since the international oil companies do not seem to be investing much in that direction at present?
§ The Prime MinisterThe question of depletion is an important national question, and the Government have given a lot of consideration to the proper rate of depletion. For the first few years during which the oil will be flowing, the rate of depletion will be governed by agreements with the oil companies. That will take us up to a level of perhaps 100 million tons a year. After those first few years, it will be possible for us to review the rate of depletion and see whether it is better to keep more of the oil under the North Sea and import more, or whether we should seek to be self-sufficient or, indeed, over-self-sufficient. All these questions come up for decision during the discussions that we shall have during, I hope, the next few months. For the first two or three years, however, we are bound by the agreements already made.
§ Mr. WhitelawReverting to the firemen's strike, if, alas, the strike is not settled by the negotiations, as I am sure that the House very much hopes it will be, will the Prime Minister discuss with his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary again the position of the equipment available to the troops? They are being asked to undertake a very dangerous and difficult job. We accept what the Home Secretary has said—that certain parts of the equipment probably cannot be used without training—but we question whether that goes for all the equipment, in particular the, breathing equipment. Will the Prime Minister and the Home 762 Secretary look very carefully at this matter again?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir, most certainly. In fact, the Home Secretary and I and other Ministers have had discussions on this matter. There seems to be a difference of view about the breathing apparatus, because the information we have is that it is not easy to use without proper training. But, as regards other apparatus, we would have to balance two considerations. One is that the best equipment that is available in the fire stations should be used to stop an outbreak of fire or to bring it under control. On the other hand, if it seemed likely that we were on the edge—I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me—of a negotiated settlement, and the use of that equipment was likely to start the whole of the friction—[Interruption.] Perhaps the Opposition do not agree with that, but that at least would be my view about it. Perhaps they will allow me to state my view, whether Members of the Opposition agree or not. If we were on the edge of a negotiated settlement and rushing into fire stations and taking out a lot of equipment were to set back that settlement by two or three weeks, it would simply not be worth it. The Government must judge the matter on the basis of getting the best use out of the apparatus and getting a negotiated settlement.
§ Mr. WhitelawWhile I would not wish to argue with the Prime Minister about anything that might make the settlement of the strike more difficult, I wish to return to one point about the breathing equipment. There is no difference of opinion. I am asking the Prime Minister whether he and the Home Secretary will look again at the matter to make absolutely certain that the breathing equipment cannot be used. If it is proved that it cannot be used, we ought to know, but our troops deserve every possible protection that can be given.
§ The Prime MinisterI agree entirely with the right hon. Gentleman about that. I will certainly have another look at it with the Home Secretary to see whether breathing apparatus can be used by untrained soldiers. If it can, they should have it.