HC Deb 17 November 1977 vol 939 cc739-40
2. Mr. Wyn Roberts

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what has been the increase in percentage terms in violent crimes in Wales compared with England since 1960.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John)

The percentage increase in indictable offences of violence against the person recorded as known to the police between 1960 and 1976 was about 520 per cent. in Wales and about 390 per cent. in England. It is not possible to be more precise because the figures are affected by changes in the law and in recording practice over this period.

Mr. Roberts

I am sure that the Minister, the whole House and the people of Wales will be shocked by that enormous increase in violent crime, especially compared with England. The English figure presumably includes the London metropolitan area. Can the Minister give any explanation? Could he possibly attribute this to the low recruitment to the police force?

Mr. John

As to the last question, over the same period there has been an increase in recruitment in Wales of 86 per cent. It is somewhat difficult to attribute any steady reason for the disproportionate increase. For example, in the period 1975–76 the rise in crimes of violence in Wales was less than in England.

Mr. Fernyhough

Assuming that the devolution proposals go through the House successfully, will they have any effect upon the disproportionate amount of crime in Wales as compared with that in England?

Mr. John

Not unless my right hon. Friend, in a fit of rage, hits me with the Wales Bill.

Mr. Grist

Is the Minister aware that in the past two months there have been 46 attacks on police officers in the Cardiff area? Is it not time to take the very strongest counter-measures, not least to bring the police up to full establishment, perhaps by raising their rates of pay suitably?

Mr. John

My right hon. Friend has already dealt with police pay, but the hon. Gentleman displays an ignorance that is shared by a number of hon. Members as to what is the role of the Home Office and what is the role of the courts in this matter. It is for the Home Office to provide laws that lay down the penalties which magistrates can impose. It is for the courts to decide what penalties are imposed according to the facts before them.