HC Deb 16 November 1977 vol 939 cc555-7
9. Mr. Sainsbury

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he next proposes to meet the Chairman of British Railways.

25. Mr. Rost

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he next intends to meet the Chairman of the British Railways Board.

Mr. William Rodgers

I met him today and I hope to see him again soon.

Mr. Sainsbury

When he met the chairman today, did the Secretary of State ask him why commuters from Hove and Brighton should be expected to accept as reasonable a further large increase in their fares before they, the taxpayers generally, or the House have had an independent assessment of the efficiency of British Rail's operations and before they have been told how profitable are the particular lines on which they travel?

Mr. Rodgers

The simple answer to the hon. Member's question is "No" but he might not find that sufficient. I simply say to him and to rail travellers that in order to meet the costs of the railways we must either increase the fares in line with the increase in inflation or subsidise the railways to a much greater extent out of the general fund of taxation. The second possibility is not generally acceptable to the House, because of the greater public expenditure involved. The Chairman of British Rail is very concerned about the need to increase the efficiency of the railways and to make sure that commuters get value for money.

Mr. Rost

Why does not the Secretary of State take the Chairman of British Rail to do some train spotting? If he stands for a while alongside any main line station and watches the inter-city trains hurtling by he will see that most of them are less than half occupied. How can further extravagant fare increases help to get passengers back on to the railways, which are at present pricing themselves out of the market? The consumer is paying enough already for under-occupation and inefficiency.

Mr. Rodgers

The hon. Member's experience is somewhat different from mine. I have found to my delight that most inter-city trains are full, or nearly so. British Rail has shown a significant increase in the last year in the number of passengers carried. The logic of the hon. Member's question is that British Rail should reduce the number of services, and this is not generally acceptable to the public.

Mr. Dalyell

Can the Secretary of State offer possible help to the British Railways Board in providing restaurant and sleeping car facilities for Egyptian Railways?

Mr. Rodgers

Yes.

Mr. Henderson

I presume that the previous question had a West Lothian flavour. Can the Secretary of State give us any encouragement about the question of reopening lines where traffic appears to be becoming available? I refer specifically to traffic in northern Scotland, particularly in the Peterhead area, where very large loads that are taken by road could readily be taken by rail if a relatively small stretch of line were opened.

Mr. Rodgers

The chairman is anxious to increase the number of passengers and the amount of freight carried on the railways. If this involves reopening lines, he is prepared to do so. But he must be the judge of whether this makes the best sense in the circumstances. However, I shall draw his attention to what the hon. Member said.

Mr. Bowden

Is it fair to commuters in Brighton and Hove, who have had massive increases in their fares over the past few years, that they should have another increase—well in excess of the Government's pay norm—particularly when they are facing a situation in which they are called upon to subsidise large numbers of travellers in the Greater London area? Is that not a disgraceful position?

Mr. Rodgers

No, it is not disgraceful. The hon. Member should have a greater sense of perspective, allowing, of course, for his constituency obligations. Fares must increase, and British Rail has been very good in holding them down for a whole year. There is a degree of understanding on this matter, and it is inevitable that there must be a certain degree of cross-subsidisation.