HC Deb 18 January 1977 vol 924 cc65-6
9. Mr. Joseph Dean

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will publish the pupil/teacher ratios for the primary and secondary schools in the city of Leeds and for England and Wales.

Miss Margaret Jackson

Pupil-teacher ratios for each local education authority in England and Wales were published by my Department on 16th December and are available in the Library. The average pupil-teacher ratios in January 1976 in maintained schools in Leeds were in primary schools 25.;1 to 1 and in secondary schools 18.;5 to 1. The ratios for England and Wales were 23.;9 to 1 and 17.;0 to 1 respectively.

Mr. Dean

I thank the Minister for her reply. Is she aware that during a visit to a primary school in my constituency last September I found a ratio of 37-plus pupils to one teacher? Is my hon. Friend aware that last May we had a debate in this House, initiated by the Opposition on a Supply Day, and the two Front Bench spokesmen both quoted Leeds as an example of a very good Tory-controlled authority? If my figures are correct, does not this decry their argument?

Miss Jackson

I am surprised and disturbed to hear that there is a school in my hon. Friend's area with a primary class of that size. The number of classes with more than 35 pupils is quite small throughout the country as a whole. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would write to me about this matter.

Mr. Peter Bottomley

Is the Minister aware that there are primary schools in London with class sizes of about 35 even though the staff-pupil ratio is much lower? Does not the quality of education in a school depend much on the organisation within the school, which may involve large class sizes so that extra teachers can move around to particular classes or particular children? Therefore, the size of the class is not the answer to the problem.

Miss Jackson

The hon. Gentleman raises several issues surrounding the vexed question of pupil-teacher ratios and their relationship with class sizes. There is much in what he says. He will have noticed that I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Dean) to write to me to make me familiar with the details of his case.