HC Deb 01 February 1977 vol 925 cc219-21
10. Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he is satisfied in pursuance of his industrial relations policy that employers accept the need to recognise trade unions.

Mr. Harold Walker

I think that most employers now accept the need to give serious consideration to the recognition of independent trade unions to which their employees belong. I hope that recent legislation, in particular the recognition provisions of the Employment Protection Act, will encourage the extension of effective collective bargaining into areas from which independent trade unions have hitherto been excluded.

Mr. Skinner

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that in certain cities Trust Houses Forte is depriving the people working in its hotels of the opportunity of becoming members of the Transport and General Workers' Union, and that one of the directors of the company is none other than the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), the Shadow Employment Minister, who is trying to woo the trade unions to his side and is urging Conservatives to join trade unions? Is it not time that the Department of Employment saw to it that decent wages were paid to these people and that they were allowed the opportunity to join trade unions? In the meantime, should not Ministers and officials of the Department black the Trust Houses Forte hotels?

Mr. Walker

Almost certainly, many of the employees will be within the scope of wages councils. My hon. Friend will have heard what the Under-Secretary of State had to say about the measures being taken on that front. The rôle played by the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) is for him to answer to and not for me. If what my hon. Friend has said is correct—and I have no doubt that it is—

Mr. Skinner

And St. John-Stevas, as well.

Mr. Walker

—I hope that they will bring their influence to bear and make their actions in the company consistent with what they have said in this House about the need for strong trade unions.

Mr. Peter Bottomley

Does the Minister appreciate that recognition of unions by employers does not require an employer to make an agreement that existing employees shall be sacked if they will not join a union? Does he agree that British Rail employees sacked in these circumstances would not have been sacked if they had been working for other nationalised industries, because most of those industries would not make that agreement?

Mr. Walker

The hon. Gentleman must be incapable of understanding plain language. I have explained this matter several times in the last half hour. I have made it clear that what has happened in British Rail is that the closed shop that existed before the Industrial Relations Act has been reactivated.

Mr. Fernyhough

In view of the disputes arising in large factories and other concerns over the question of safety regulations, in pursuing his industrial relations policy when is my hon. Friend going to introduce the health and safety regulations? Does he not feel that they will make a contribution to better industrial relations?

Mr. Walker

Presumably my right hon. Friend is referring to the regulations providing for the appointment of work-people's safety representatives and safety committees. I am glad to say that the Government have approved the commission's proposals and that the regulations will be laid before Parliament as soon as possible, to come into operation on 1st October 1978.

Mr. Hayhoe

Is the Minister aware that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is as wrong in the charges he made earlier as he is so often on other occasions? If we can turn to more serious matters, will the Minister direct his attention to the method by which the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service carries out its survey of the wishes and desires of employees when recognition is at issue, because there is growing criticism about the fairness and reasonableness of the methods employed?

Mr. Walker

I totally refute what the hon. Gentleman said about the fairness with which the ACAS is conducting inquiries in Section 11 cases. None of those criticisms has come to me directly, and I know of no reason why they should be considered. The way in which the ACAS is carrying out its duties is reflected in the enormous improvement in industrial relations over the past year.