POWER TO REVOKE SUBORDINATE INSTRUMENTS (Hansard, 7 December 1977)

§ Mr. Pym
On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I should like to bring to your attention the situation in which the Committee finds itself as a result of the guillotine having fallen at this time. I appreciate that the Committee is operating under the terms of a resolution passed by the House, but that does not alter the fact that we all feel that we have been put in an extremely difficult position because so many extremely important matters have not been discussed.
The last three votes were on whether Clauses 36, 37 and 38 should stand part of the Bill. The only way in which we could make any kind of protest about the non-debate of those clauses and the 1467 non-consideration of any amendments to them was by voting against the clauses as a whole.

§ Mr. John Smith
Ah!

§ Mr. Pym
The Minister of State might well say "Ah!". The fact remains, however, that none of these matters has been debated. How else can one make any kind of protest except by voting as we have done? The hon. Gentleman knows very well that we intended to try to amend the three clauses. He laughs, but this is no laughing matter. When the European Communities Bill was before the Committee, no substantive constitutional issues were raised in the clauses, and in any case each clause was given ample time for debate under the guillotine procedure.
Through you, Mr. Godman Irvine, I invite the Leader of the House to come here and state whether he will consider the new position of the Committee. We have not discussed Clause 36, dealing with the overriding powers of the United Kingdom Government on Bills, or the overriding powers of Government and Execuptive orders. Nor have we been able to discuss the vires position of Executive orders affecting Community matters. Nor have we been able to discuss the number and rôle of Scots Members in the House of Commons, the problem of single-Chamber legislation and the position that another place is to be put into as a result of our not being able to discuss these matters.

§ The Second Deputy Chairman (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine)
Order. None of these matters can possibly be for the Chair, and the right hon. Gentleman is well aware of that. I am confident that the words he has uttered will have been heard in certain quarters, and it may be that some action will be taken.

§ Mr. Eldon Griffiths
On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I distinctly heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) say that he wished, through you, to invite the Leader of the House to come here and consider—

§ The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that I have no control over the Leader of the House.

§ Sir Timothy Kitson (Richmond, Yorks)
Further to that point of order—

§ The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. There is not a point of order so far. Unless the hon. Gentleman has a point of order, it would be best to use the time for debate.

§ Sir T. Kitson
We are in difficult circumstances, Mr. Godman Irvine. In the last hour, we have had five Divisions. A number of hon. Members are situated in the Norman Shaw building. We have no lifts, and I think that a Division time of eight minutes is intolerable. The period should in the circumstances be extended. I gather that one lift is working in the building. It is only right and proper that you should discuss with Mr. Speaker whether there should not be an extension to the time allowed for a Division, because we cannot go on like this.

§ The Second Deputy Chairman
I think that I can help the hon. Gentleman. This is a matter which is within the discretion of the Chair, and it has been exercised in accordance with whether or not there have been Divisions and whether or not people are around the Chamber. There have been occasions when as much as three minutes extra have been allowed so that people at the top end of Norman Shaw would be able to get here.

§ Mr. Gow
On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. Since the situation in which the Government invited the House to approve the timetable motion has now wholly changed, because it was never within the contemplation of the Government that we should pass whole clauses without any debate at all, could you advise us what protective powers you have in order to safeguard our rights and ensure that we do not go on—

§ The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. I am the servant of the House. Once the report of the Business Committee has been agreed to, I have to carry out the wishes of the House.

§ Mr. Douglas Crawford (Perth and East Perthshire)
On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. It might be of assistance to the House if it can be pointed out to the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) that all this blustering 1469 cannot alter the fact that the Conservative Party voted against the override powers.

§ Mr. Maurice Macmillan
On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I am not absolutely certain whether we are to have longer time for Divisions. If we are, it means that we shall have less time for debate. Could not the people in Norman Shaw come over here in anticipation of a Division and then wait, as it is always on the hour every four hours?

§ The Second Deputy Chairman
The fact that there is additional time before the door is locked does not necessarily mean that there will be any less time for debate.

§ Mr. Pym
I do not rise to a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine, but before we embark on Clause 39 may I draw the attention of the Government to, and ask for a reply on, what appears to be a mistake in the Bill which is germane to Clause 39? The clause deals, among other things, with the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975. That Act is referred to in Schedule 10, which deals with matters within the legislative competence of the Assembly and within the powers of the Scottish Executive—indeed, it says so in its heading. But the heading to Part III of Schedule 10 is Enactments Relating to the Groups in Part I". 8.0 p.m.
On page 66 of the Bill the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 is mentioned. At the bottom of that page, in sub-paragraph (i), it will be observed that Section 18 of that Act is included. If one then turns over to the next page, one finds that Schedule 11 is headed Matters Within Powers of Scottish Executive but not Within Legislative Competence of Assembly". Then, under Group D, in line 27 one finds the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 again mentioned. At the top of page 69, in paragraph 2(ix), one sees the powers under Section 18 included.
In other words, Section 18 of the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 is included in the Bill under the schedule which is headed Matters within Legislative Competence of Assembly, and within Powers of Scottish Executive". 1470 and also in the schedule headed Matters Within Powers of Scottish Executive but not Within Legislative Competence of Assembly. I should like to know which of those is correct before we embark on an amendment relating to the Scottish Development Agency.

§ Mr. John Smith
Further to that point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. I think that I can assist the right hon. Gentleman. Schedule 10 deals with the environmental functions of the Scottish Development Agency, over which there will be legislative competence. Section 18 is mentioned in error in Schedule 11. It should be in Schedule 10 only. I hope that that assists the right hon. Gentleman. The Government will certainly see that the error is corrected.