§ 19. Mr. Richard Wainwrightasked the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received following his instructions to the South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire Metropolitan County Councils to cut public transport subsidies or risk losing their transport supplementary grant.
§ Mr. William RodgersI have asked all metropolitan authorities to reconsider their estimates of expenditure on local transport in 1977–73, and I am awaiting their replies.
§ Mr. WainwrightWhen the Minister considers these replies will he bear in mind that these two metropolitan counties in Yorkshire have developed distinctive transport strategies which are only part way through development and that it would be ruinous to interrupt them? Will he bear in mind that in these counties the overwhelming number of bus journeys is for the purposes of productive work?
§ Mr. RodgersI agree that the two adjoining counties, under distinguished leadership, have developed distinctive and remarkably different systems. Obviously, I am most reluctant to use the authority I have through the transport supplementary grant to interfere with reasonable local option. I have to make clear to them, as I have to other metropolitan 462 counties, that it is impossible to pour a quart into a pint pot. I am afraid that all the local authorities in the country must closely examine their total transport spending—the balance between revenue support and capital.
§ Mr. Stan CrowtherWill my right hon. Friend accept that in these heavily industrialised counties industry is a major contributor to the rate fund? Does he agree that, in the main, buses tend to be used more by the poorer members of the community and that, in view of these two factors, subsidising bus tares out of the rate fund is a sound Socialist measure, for the benefit of the less well-off?
§ Mr. RodgersI am well aware of my hon. Friend's distinguished leadership in local government. He has made a persuasive point. I am reluctant to seek to undermine a legitimate local option, because it is part of our own distinctive system. It remains the case, however, that all spending, whether raised on the rates or through taxation, is part of the total of public expenditure, and whether or not we believe that the present levels are right, and whether or not we accept the priorities, if we spend more in one direction we must spend less in another.
§ Miss MaynardDoes my right hon. Friend not agree that the policy of the South Yorkshire County Council is paying dividends, in that more people are travelling on public transport there, and that is what we need? Is it not more sensible to do that than to have buses standing idle in a garage because people cannot afford the fares? Is not this also a way of holding down the cost of living and helping people whose wages are restricted, and who are therefore facing considerable difficulties?
§ Mr. RodgersIt is very desirable to see more people travelling on the buses. It is true that the bus often meets the needs of those who are least privileged and most deprived. However, if revenue from the buses does not meet costs there must be a charge on the rates. That may be a legitimate decision, but it is not consistent with public expenditure objectives. Let no one pretend that there is a soft option. If people pay less in fares they must pay more in rates.