HC Deb 27 October 1976 vol 918 cc458-61
17. Mr. Ovenden

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he next intends to meet the Chairman of British Railways.

22. Mr. Wyn Roberts

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he next plans to meet the Chairman of British Railways.

30. Mr. Moate

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions he has had with the new Chairman of British Railways.

Mr. William Rodgers

I met him recently and expect to see him again soon.

Mr. Ovenden

When he does next meet the Chairman of British Rail, will the Secretary of State make it clear that a 15 per cent. increase in fares when wage increases are limited to 5 per cent. is totally inconsistent with the social contract? The majority of hon. Members on the Government side of the House believe that we should be thinking of increasing rail subsidies rather than phasing them out. Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that he has no intention of proceeding with the idea of reducing the subsidy to the London commuter area?

Mr. William Rodgers

My hon. Friend puts his finger on the dilemma. He says that a 15 per cent. increase would be inconsistent with the social contract. It is true that any increase in fares bears on travellers, and this presents them with problems, but the alternative is an increase in subsidies or a cut in services. An increase in subsidies means increasing the amount that the taxpayer must pay. I can only say that within the foreseeable future the figures that are contained in the public expenditure White Paper are the only ones upon which I or the Chairman of British Rail can work. There can be no others, and certainly no higher figures than those. There are many claims on public expenditure. but decisions must be made and priorities determined.

Mr. Roberts

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is deep concern in North Wales at the proposal by British Rail to withdraw the old-established "Emerald Isle" service between Euston and Holyhead? Will he give an assurance that the Chester-to-Holyhead section of the line is not jeopardised?

Mr. William Rodgers

I am afraid that I am very short of assurances today for any hon. Member on any question. This matter is for the judgment of the Railways Board, but I am sure that it will take note of the hon. Gentleman's remarks and that it is fully aware of the background to the problem of this well-known and well-regarded train.

Mr. Cledwyn Hughes

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the historic train to which the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts) referred is one of the vital lines of communication for business and industrial purposes between North Wales and Euston? Is he aware that I am currently making arrangements to meet the officials of British Rail to discuss the service, and will he be good enough to take a continuing interest in the matter?

Mr. William Rodgers

I shall be happy to take that containing interest, particulady if my right hon. Friend tells me that this is his means of arriving in London and joining us in the House.

Mr. Moate

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that many commuters will agree with Mr. Peter Parker's statement that we are in danger of getting lousy services at luxury prices? If there must be higher fares, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is a greater chance of their being accepted by commuters if the loss-making lines are properly identified and if there is consultation with the commuters about what the proper and appropriate fare should be on individual lines?

Mr. William Rodgers

That is an interesting suggestion. I sympathise with the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) and with my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Ovenden) about the feelings of commuters. I hope that these issues will be presented to commuters in a way that will enable them to see the real options. It is wrong for people to feel that they are being unfairly treated, but it is right that they should recognise the alternatives that face them, this House and the country about the level of fares, the level of services and the alternative means of finding subsidies.

Mr. George Rodgers

Does my right hon. Friend agree that no major railway system in the world survives without substantial subsidy? Will he give an assurance that there is no intention of reducing the existing level of subsidy?

Mr. William Rodgers

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is true that throughout the world railways have provided significant problems in self-financing. We have a great deal to be proud of here in the dedication of railwaymen to the railways over many years and the fine services that are still frequently provided. My hon. Friend will know of the public expenditure White Paper and will know, too, that it provides for a constant level of subsidies over the five-year period. I hope that it will be possible to maintain them, but no one can forecast the future.

Mr. Fry

May I take up both the pertinent question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) and the Secretary of State's remarks? Is it not essential that rail commuters should have some idea of the allocation of actual costs per route? At the moment the global figure is given. Will the Minister ask the Chairman of British Rail to return to the former method of showing a profit and loss on individual routes, so that commuters may feel satisfied about where the subsidies are going?

Mr. William Rodgers

The allocation of costs is one of the great theological questions facing the railways. It is difficult to determine the allocation of costs and to decide how far, by making a saving on one Inter-City line, for example, there are ripple effects elsewhere. However, I see the point of identifying individual rail services where there is a particularly large gap between revenue and costs, and of decisions being made in a clearheaded way about what ought to be done. I am sure that the Chairman of British Rail will have all this in mind.