§ As amended (in the Standing Committee), further considered.
§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
§ Sir B. BraineWhen I was temporarily halted I was in the process of explaining why the delay proposed in the amendment should be accepted. I said there were two reasons why such a delay would help the Government to come to the right conclusion. First of all, the investigation of complaints is a matter for the police, and whatever arrangements are devised in this Bill it is still the police service that has to carry out the investigation of complaints.
The burden upon the police in present circumstances is very heavy. Time is needed for proper consultation with the police staff associations. That has been manifest in various stages in our discussions in Committee and on Report. The Government have declined to spell out the detailed requirement that should be put into the Bill. They have preferred to leave the matter to Regulations, but in police matters Regulations require long, detailed and careful scrutiny with the police staff associations. That in itself is a good reason for accepting the amendment.
10.15 p.m.
Time must be allowed for consideration of what these Regulations should contain. For one thing, this is one of the most astonishing Bills ever to be brought before the House of Commons. It takes a basically good idea—the simple notion that there should be an independent element in considering complaints against the police—and it invests it, smothers it, and one might almost say strangles it with a massive bureaucratic machine.
My complaint throughout our discussions on the Bill, and the justification for the amendment, is that the Government have never grasped the full implications of what they have proposed. That 1056 is taking the most charitable view of their ludicrous assertion that the cost of this bureaucratic machine will not exceed £300,000 a year. We were even given an assurance that that limited cost would be met entirely out of central funds and would place no additional burden on local authorities. That is manifest nonsense.
In 1974, complaints against the police were running at about 17,500, and that number is steadily rising. The Metropolitan Police maintains a special department—it is called A10—to consider nothing but complaints against the police. It employs 80 to 90 full-time officers, but they deal with only 11 per cent. of all the complaints laid against the Metropolitan Police. I must say in passing that well over 90 per cent. of those complaints are found to be unsubstantiated and that not much mere than 1 per cent. of complainants express themselves as dissatisfied. If that set-up is necessary under existing Regulations for no more than 11 per cent. of complaints levelled against the Metropolitan Police, we contend that it would require, over the country, an additional 320 police officers.
Where would the money for those additional officers come from? It will not come from Government funds—we have been told that. The Under-Secretary told the police so last week in her speech at Bournemouth. Many months ago the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), when Secretary of State for the Environment, told local authorities that the party was over. Every council in the country has cut its services. We are therefore entitled to ask where the money will come from for this ludicrous new arrangement.
Under existing arrangements it is becoming increasing difficult for chief constables to find the superintendents in their forces to deal with the more serious complaints. I hope that the Government will come clean on this, because there has been no admission from them about the difficulties encountered by the police in operating the existing system, let alone the one in the Bill for which we are asking but a modest delay. At present it is very difficult to find police officers 1057 from other forces to take on the job of investigating complaints. Why do the Government not tell the House the truth?
The Prime Minister is in his place. As the appointed Minister, he is responsible for seting up this elaborate and expensive new machinery, the true cost of which has been concealed from Parliament. I do not think the Prime Minister knows what is being done in his name. He inherited this situation and I hesitate to place an additional burden on his shoulders. I admire and respect the right hon. Gentleman greatly, and it would not be fair to ask him to explain this matter to the House.
However, the Under-Secretary, who has had to bear the heat and burden of the day on this Bill, ill-advised at almost every turn by her professional advisers—she has done splendidly with such a lack of ammunition—should now come clean and tell us where the money is coming from to pay for this elaborate, expensive and unwanted new machinery.
It is because of the uncertainties, the need for second thoughts and the need for extensive consultations with the police staff associations that I beg the Government to think again and to accept the modest and reasonable proposals contained in the amendment.
§ Dr. SummerskillI shall speak to the amendment. Its effect would be to delay the coming into operation of at least Part
| Division No. 161.] | AYES | [10.25 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Alison, Michael | Clark, William (Croydon S) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Arnold, Tom | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Forman, Nigel |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Clegg, Walter | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) |
| Banks, Robert | Cockcroft, John | Fox, Marcus |
| Bell, Ronald | Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Cope, John | Fry, Peter |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Cormack, Patrick | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Biffen, John | Corrie, John | Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Costain, A. P. | Gilmour, Sir John (East File) |
| Blaker, Peter | Critchley, Julian | Glyn, Dr. Alan |
| Body, Richard | Crouch, David | Godber, Rt Hon Joseph |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Crowder, F. P. | Goodhart, Philip |
| Bottomley, Peter | Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) | Goodhew, Victor |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) |
| Brittan, Leon | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Drayson, Burnaby | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Gray, Hamish |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Durant, Tony | Grist, Ian |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Dykes, Hugh | Grylls, Michael |
| Buck, Antony | Emery, Peter | Hall, Sir John |
| Budgen, Nick | Eyre, Reginald | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Fairgrieve, Russell | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Burden, F. A. | Farr, John | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Finsberg. Geoffrey | Hannam, John |
| Carlisie, Mark | Fisher, Sir Nigel | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) |
§ I of the Bill for 12 months from the date the Bill is passed. During that time, nothing could happen. It would then be possible to bring into force at least Clause 1 and the schedule, so that the board could be appointed and have a corporate existence, but it would be 18 months or more before the new scheme could get under way, and such a delay is quite unacceptable. The speeches on this amendment were not in favour of delay; they were against the Bill.
It is our intention that the board should be set up and begin its duties as soon as possible. Appointing members of the board and its staff and preparing Regulations will begin at the earliest possible moment. All this will necessarily take time, but we believe it could be completed in a period of 12 months. In these circumstances, the delay implicit in the amendment cannot be accepted.
It has rightly been said that public confidence in the police is extremely high—possibly higher than ever. This Bill will enhance and increase that confidence and not detract from it.
The Bill received an unopposed Second Reading. There is no reason why it should not be put on the statute book and become operative as soon as possible.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 300.
| Hasting, Stephen | Mills, Peter | Shepherd, Colin |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Miscampbell, Norman | Shersby, Michael |
| Hicks, Robert | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Sims, Roger |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Moate, Roger | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Hordern, Peter | Monro, Hector | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Montgomery, Fergus | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Hunt, John | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Speed, Keith |
| Hurd, Douglas | Morgan, Geraint | Spence, John |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) |
| James, David | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Jenkin, Rt Hn P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Sproat, Iain |
| Jessel, Toby | Mudd, David | Stainton, Keith |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Neave, Airey | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Jones, Arthur (Daventry) | Nelson, Anthony | Stanley, John |
| Jopling, Michael | Neubert, Michael | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Normanton, Tom | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Nott, John | Stokes, John |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Onslow, Cranley | Stradling, Thomas J. |
| Kimball, Marcus | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | Tapsell, Peter |
| King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Osborn, John | Taylor, R. (Croydon NW) |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Page, John (Harrow West) | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Kitson, Sir Timorthy | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Knox, David | Pattie, Geoffrey | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Lane, David | Percival, Ian | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Latham, Michael (Melton) | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Prior, Rt Hon James | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Trotter, Neville |
| Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Rathbone, Tim | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Lloyd, Ian | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Loveridge, John | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) | Viggers, Peter |
| Luce, Richard | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| McCrindle, Robert | Ridsdale, Julian | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Rifkind, Malcolm | Warren, Kenneth |
| MacGregor, John | Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Weatherill, Bernard |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Wells, John |
| Madel, David | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Marten, Neil | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Winterton Nicholas |
| Mates, Michael | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Mather, Carol | Royle, Sir Anthony | Younger, Hon George |
| Maude, Angus | Sainsbury, Tim | |
| Mawby, Ray | SI. John-Stevas, Norman | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Scott, Nicholas | Mr. Fred Silvester and |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Mr. W. Benyon. |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | |
| Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Cant, R. B. | Douglas-Mann, Bruce |
| Allaun, Frank | Carmichael, Neil | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Anderson, Donald | Carter, Ray | Dunn, James A. |
| Archer, Peter | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Dunnett, Jack |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cartwright, John | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Ashley, Jack | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Eadie, Alex |
| Ashton, Joe | Clemitson, Ivor | Edge, Geoff |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Cohen, Stanley | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Coleman, Donald | Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Ennals, David |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Concannon, J. D. | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) |
| Bates, Alf | Conlan, Bernard | Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) |
| Bean, R. E. | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) |
| Beith, A, J. | Corbett, Robin | Evans John (Newton) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. |
| Bishop, E. S. | Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Cryer, Bob | Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W) |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Flannery, Martin |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Dalyell, Tarn | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Bradley, Tom | Davidson, Arthur | Ford, Ben |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Forrester, John |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Davies, Denzll (Llanelli) | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) |
| Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Freeson, Reginald |
| Buchan, Norman | Deakins, Eric | Freud, Clement |
| Buchanan, Richard | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | George, Bruce |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Gilbert, Dr John |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Dempsey, James | Golding, John |
| Campbell, Ian | Doig, Peter | Gould, Bryan |
| Canavan, Dennis | Dormand, J. D. | Gourlay, Harry |
| Graham, Ted | Mackenzie, Gregor | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mackintosh, John P. | Rowlands, Ted |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Maclennan, Robert | Sandelson, Neville |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Grocott, Bruce | McNamara, Kevin | Selby, Harry |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Madden, Max | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Hamilton, w. W. (Central Fife) | Magee, Bryan | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) |
| Hardy, Peter | Mahon, Simon | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Marks, Kenneth | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Marquand, David | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Hatton, Frank | Marshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole) | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Hayman, Mrs Helene | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Sillars, James |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Silverman, Julius |
| Hooley, Frank | Maynard, Miss Joan | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Meacher, Michael | Small, William |
| Horam, John | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Howell, Rt Hon Denis | Mendelson, John | Spearing, Nigel |
| Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Mikardo, Ian | Stallard, A. W. |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Millan, Bruce | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Huckfield, Les | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Stoddart, David |
| Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Stott, Roger |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Molloy, William | Strang, Gavin |
| Hughes, Roy (Nwport) | Moonman, Eric | Strauss, Rt Hn G. R. |
| Hunter, Adam | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Swain, Thomas |
| Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Moyle, Roland | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Janner, Greville | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Jeger, Mrs. Lena | Newens, Stanley | Tierney, Sydney |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Noble, Mike | Tinn, James |
| Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford) | Oakes, Gordon | Tomlinson, John |
| John, Brynmor | Ogden, Eric | Torney, Tom |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | O'Halloran, Michael | Tuck, Raphael |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Orbach, Maurice | Urwin, T. W. |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Ovenden, John | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Padley, Walter | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Palmer, Arthur | Wainwright, Richard (Coine V) |
| Judd, Frank | Pardoe, John | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Park, George | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Kelley, Richard | Parker, John | Ward, Michael |
| Kerr, Russell | Parry, Robert | Watkins, David |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Pavitt, Laurie | Watkinson, John |
| Kinnock, Neil | Peart, Rt Hon Fred | Weetch, Ken |
| Lambie, David | Pendry, Tom | Weitzman, David |
| Lamborn, Harry | Penhaligon, David | Wellbeloved, James |
| Lamond, James | Perry, Ernest | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Phipps, Dr Colin | White, James (Pollok) |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Lee, John | Prescott, John | Whitlock, William |
| Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Price, William (Rugby) | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Radice, Giles | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| Lipton, Marcus | Richardson, Miss Jo | Williams, Sir Thomas |
| Litterick, Tom | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Loyden, Eddie | Robinson, Geoffrey | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Luard, Evan | Roderick, Caerwyn | Woodall, Alec |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Woof, Robert |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| McCartney, Hugh | Rooker, J. W. | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| McElhone, Frank | Roper, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Rose, Paul B. | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Mr. Peter Snape. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.