HC Deb 20 July 1976 vol 915 cc1661-71

Question again proposed.

Mr. Prior

Lastly on this point, there is the real anger of the Opposition resulting from what happened in the debate just before Whitsun. The Opposition rightly felt angry at the conduct of the Government. An Opposition then resort to all the tactics they can to prevent Government business going through. Labour Members then turn round and say that we are approaching the recess, we all need to get away, the Government must have their business and we must stop all this talk that goes on in this place and conduct ourselves in a more businesslike manner. But it is the Government who have brought this state of affairs upon themelves.

What confidence can people outside have in our democratic process if we take this cavalier attitude towards legislation and are prepared to go away? Very well, let us go away, but is this legislation so vital to the running of the country that it cannot wait for us to come back in September, October or whenever it may be? I simply do not believe that people outside understand that either we have to pack up in the first week in August and, therefore, legislation has to be through this House by then or we cannot either continue or come back to it later. It really is no excuse to say that this legislation has to be through by the beginning of August.

On the question of the Dock Work Regulation Bill, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be prepared to admit that we have always tried to make agreements, on all the Bills in which we have participated when in Opposition, with whoever has been Leader of the House. We have always sought to make an agreement snaring out time reasonably so that there could be proper discussion. That is precisely and exactly what happened in this instance. The right hon. Gentleman will see from the Official Report of the Committee proceedings that we co-operated fully. Does he really think that in future we can afford to co-operate on a Committee stage if all that is then to happen is that we are to be given one day on a guillotined Report stage? He is destroying any hope of reasonable timetable agreements which, I believe, are largely in the interests of hon. Members, of the House and of people outside.

It is the acrimony and distrust which the new Leader of the House has brought into the conduct of our affairs which has done so much to cause the difficulties we are now in. This could be part of a process. Tonight we have heard from Labour Members that the House is brought into disrepute by the arguments that are going on. What is the next step? There must be changes in the way the House conducts its business. There is an undermining of Parliament as an institution. That is an extremely dangerous way to go about things. Hon. Gentlemen opposite do not do Parliament any good by getting the legislative programme into a muddle and then blaming the system, because that does not help Parliament at all.

What has happened since the right hon. Gentleman has been Leader of the House? When we barracked him a bit on a winding-up speech, he accused the Opposition of being semi-drunk. When Mr. Speaker gave a ruling that did not suit him, the right hon. Gentleman changed the ruling. When he was likely to be beaten in a Division, he cheated with the vote. Now he has guillotined five Bills in one day and has killed proper debate.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot)

The right hon. Gentleman must not make such accusations about my having cheated on a vote. If he is going to make such accusations, he should produce the evidence. There is not a scrap of evidence to support what he says.

Mr. Prior

I do not think I need produce any evidence to any Member in this Parliament to show that on that night there was a cheating of the vote. The right hon. Gentleman, as Leader of the House and responsible for the management of Government affairs, must take the major responsibility for what happened. It is also inconceivable that he did not know about it anyhow.

Mr. Foot

The right hon. Gentleman has no grounds for making any such charge. If he is to make any such charge, he should produce evidence to support it. I proposed that there should be an investigation into the matter, as the Leader of the Opposition knows full well. I said that there should be an investigation by representatives from both sides of the House. In the face of that fact, for the right hon. Gentleman to continue to make that accusation without a scrap of evidence is a scandalous misuse of the rights of this House.

Mr. Prior

The right hon. Gentleman has a short memory. On the following morning he came to the House and tried to brush the whole thing off as if nothing had happened. There is nothing in what I have said which gives me cause to withdraw anything, and I have no intention of doing so.

I turn now to what the right hon. Gentleman said about this guillotine motion. He said that we had had long Committee stages, so we did not need such long Report stages. But he must know from his experience that the longer the Committee stage, in all probability the more need there will be for a long Report stage because of the facts which will have come out in Committee.

For example, in Committee on the Dock Work Regulation Bill Ministers gave 60 assurances to look at various points again. There are 255 amendments down for Report, of which 41 are Government amendments and six are starred amendments which have been put down since the guillotine was announced. We need, and we know that there should be, at least eight major debates on Report. We know that 40 hon. Members on the Opposition side who were not members of the Committee represent small ports which can be affected by the Bill. How on earth will those hon. Members—whether they come from Montrose, Harwich, Portsmouth, Milford Haven, Shoreham or other places—be able to make a case for their constituents in the course of a single day on Report? It is grossly unfair that this Bill should have only one day on Report.

Mr. John Page (Harrow, West)

The Bill concerns not only Members who represent constituencies with ports but others like the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy), who should have been here to defend his constituency, which is also attacked by the Bill.

Mr. Prior

Looking at the cargo-handling zone—the five-mile corridor— one realises that many hon. Members on both sides of the House must be extremely uneasy about the effects of the Bill. No Bill this Session has caused more unease amongst Labour Members than the Dock Work Regulation Bill. They are still squabbling about it. Only yesterday I saw a report which pointed out that the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) wanted to take another deputation to see the Minister on the subject.

The Bill flies in the face of all modern industrial relations practice. It is likely to put up costs and prices. It will cause a lack of investment in areas round the ports. It is highly unpopular with many unions. In addition, it will cause unemployment.

Perhaps the last commentary that one should make on the whole guillotine debate on the Dock Work Regulation Bill in particular is that, on a day when unemployment figures have reached a post-war high, we are busy guillotining and pushing through the House three out of five Bills which will certainly add to the numbers of unemployed. The Dock Work Regulation Bill, the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill and the Rent (Agriculture) Bill will all add to unemployment. They will stop investment, stop production on the farms, stop investment in the cargo-handling zone and add to our problems. They will put up prices at the same time.

There is absolutely no case whatever for the guillotine in these circumstances. There is no case for these Bills. The Dock Work Regulation Bill should be dropped. One of the best measures that the Government could take to restore shattered confidence in the pound abroad would be to drop the Bill out of their programme altogether.

We have a duty to press these things as hard as we can, and we feel real anger at the way the Government have behaved. If anyone tries to say that we are disrupting the work of the House of Commons, he should be told that the blame lies fairly and squarely with the management of Government business and the Government's behaviour in the last six weeks. This is what has led to the difficulties we now face.

10.12 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Albert Booth)

I should like to agree with what the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) said about this debate being historic. I fear that I can agree with very little else that he said.

Our debate has included two very interesting and persuasively argued appeals for reform of the procedure of the House in order to obviate the need for guillotines. I refer, of course, to the speeches of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith). I believe that it would be worth trying to create a mechanism or procedure to determine a voluntary timetable, and I believe that that would obviate the need for certain guillotine motions.

But my experience of industrial relations and of the House leads me to believe that while we may determine a mechanism or a procedure that might help, it would not obviate totally our situation tonight. In the last analysis, the Opposition must retain the right to strike at the Government, and also in the last analysis the Government must retain the right to use whatever majority they can command to obtain their legislation. However, I believe that the speeches of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty and the hon. Member for Rochdale are interesting and would stand study by other hon. Members.

The Government believe that it is now urgent for the House to reach conclusions about the provisions of the Dock Work Regulation Bill. There has already been full and ample opportunity for the House as a whole to express its views on the underlying principles of this Bill. My predecessor as Secretary of State, the present Leader of the House, made a statement to the House on 25th July 1974 and announced the Government's intention to ensure that the coverage of statutory control of employment of dock work was appropriate to modern conditions and to start consultations on ways of achieving that end. That was nearly two years ago. In March 1975 we issued a consultative document "Dock Work" which laid down all the main proposals contained in the Bill. Hon. Members have therefore had an opportunity for a long time to examine them.

On 14th April last year the House first debated the dock work proposals contained in the consultative document and it negatived by 282 votes to 257 an Opposition motion rejecting the consultative document. That was the first occasion on which the House determined in favour of the Government's proposition as now contained in the Bill.

In the Queen's Speech this Session we announced that a Bill would be introduced to ensure comprehensive employment safeguards for dock workers. On that occasion the Liberals tabled an amendment opposing an extension of the scheme. After a full debate, the House rejected the amendment by 294 votes to 288. No one can therefore contend that the House was not fully aware, of the proposals even before the Bill was given a Second Reading, and no one can say that the House has not had an opportunity to determine whether it accepts the principles underlying the Bill in its main proposition.

In those two debates before Second Reading, as now, we believed that it was clearly necessary to take legislative action to extend the dock work scheme and to make changes necessary in dockland to bring the docks into conformity with modern technology and industrial requirements. We emphasised then the great contribution this legislation could make to bringing about industrial peace in our docks.

We emphasised equally strongly how failure to bring the legislation up to date could bring about the risks of industrial action similar to the risks which existed between 1970 and 1974 when the Conservative Government pigeonholed positive proposals for dealing with dock work and brought about two of the three national dock strikes in the country's history.

Sir David Renton (Huntingdonshire)

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said about industrial peace, does he accept from me that representative trade unionists in my constituency have told me that the Bill will lead to industrial strife so far as they are concerned?

Mr. Booth

The history of docks legislation is one of considerable controversy, but the present dock work regulation scheme existed at the time of the last two national dock strikes, and I am therefore certain that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, with his customary fairness, will not contend that the existing scheme will resolve the current industrial problems of dockland.

Mrs. Kellett-Bowman

Will the Secretary of State tell us of one single port in the country with industrial relations anything like as good as those at Felixstowe?

Mr. Booth

There are a whole number of docks in this country which have a very good record. In Standing Committee we examined the records of scheme and non-scheme ports throughout the country. Let me apply myself directly to the subject of Felixstowe. I went there and I spoke to every shop steward in the docks, and without exception they told me that they wanted Felixstowe brought within the scheme.

It is the view not only of the Government or the TUC's transport committee that the legislation is urgently needed. The ACAS panel of inqury into last year's unofficial action in and around the Port of London said: In conclusion, we would stress once again that the present problems are a renewal of long-standing friction which have been subject to investigation on several occasions. The first recommendation of the report was: That the Government, having brought forward its proposals relating to registered dock work, should make every effort to give these preposals legal effect within the minimum period possible". We had to balance the urgent need for the legislation against the requirement of the House properly to scruitinise a measure which we knew would be controversial.

Mr. Brittan

The right hon. Gentleman's reference to the ACAS report is grossly misleading because the report said that if the Government had already made up their minds to introduce legislation of this kind, uncertainty would be resolved by dealing with that legislation as quickly as possible. There is nothing in the report that says that the legislation is desirable or necessary.

Mr. Booth

I have not misrepresented the report, though I have naturally selected the two pieces relevant to the matter we are debating—the urgency of the legislation and the need for the timetable motion.

Following two previous debates and a Second Reading, we spent 36 sittings in Committee discussing 381 amendments to a Bill of 18 clauses and five schedules. In all, 85¼ hours were spent on the detailed provisions of the Bill. It was a matter of some regret to me that the Opposition chose to waste some of that time on matters of procedure that had nothing to do with the substance of the Bill.

One rather interesting example of our proceedings occurred on our sixth sitting. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), who played a notable part in our proceedings, moved an amendment debated by some of his hon. Friends. After my reply, the hon. Member rose to make a further submission. That second speech was not completed on the next sitting of 11th March, but had to wait until 16th March to be completed—something of a record.

The reason was not the length of the hon. Member's speech, but the fact that his hon. Friends chose to spend most of our seventh sitting discussing whether the Committee should adjourn as a result of a vote which had taken place in the House on the previous evening and which had nothing to do with the Bill.

Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)

Shall I have sufficient opportunity to develop the points that I was making in that speech, which have still not been completed? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that one day under the timetable is enough to debate these important issues?

Mr. Booth

Many of the important amendments that we debated at length in Committee—I make no complaint about the length of those debates as I think it was important that they should take place—have been tabled again on Report. Many of them are in exactly the same terms. In fact, more than 50 of the amendments tabled for Report are in the same terms as those with which we dealt previously. A large number are concerned with individual ports, the House having decided in principle in favour of a mechanism under which the National Dock Labour Board and the Secretary of State may determine the appropriate areas for the regulation of dock work. I put it to the House that it would make a nonsense of our procedures to return on Report to series of 100 debates to determine which individual ports were out and which individual ports were in.

The Government believe that a motion to curtail the debate on the Dock Work Regulation Bill is necessary so as to allow time for the consideration of the Bill by the House and to enable a decision to be reached. I agree that previously we have been able to reach agreements on timing—for example, the Industrial Relations Bill—and I join with those who regret that it has not been possible on this occasion. This procedure is necessary only because the tactics that the Opposition have pursued have prevented the Government from obtaining legislation in the final months of this Session. The Dock Work Regulation Bill is important. It is controversial, but it requires the determination of the House. The timetable motion will make it possible for that determination to take place.

10.27 p.m.

Mr. David Price (Eastleigh)

I am afraid that the Secretary of State for Employment fell below his normal form in the reasons that he deployed for allowing only one day on Report for this Bill. A number of important events have taken place since the proceedings in Committee

were completed that have a direct bearing on the Bill as at present drafted and on the whole framework of the Government's scheme.

First, we have had the important annual review of the Port of London Authority, which identifies even more clearly than before that the major labour relations problem in our ports lies in London, and that it will not be solved by calling more people's work dock work, work that is currently not so designated. The major problem in London is the rundown of the East End of London and the lack of job opportunities along the river. That is the major problem to which both sides of the House should address themselves. It is a problem that will not be solved by the Bill. Therefore, that is no reason for hurrying it through.

Secondly, we have—

It being three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion.

MR. SPEAKER proceeded to put the Questions necessary to dispose of them, pursuant to Standing Order No. 44 (Allocation of time to Bills).

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 311.

Hall, Sir John Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Royle, Sir Anthony
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Marten, Neil Sainsbury, Tim
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mates, Michael St. John-Stevas, Norman
Hampson, Dr Keith Mather, Carol Scott, Nicholas
Hannam, John Maude, Angus Scott-Hopkins, James
Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss Mawby, Ray Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)
Hastings, Stephen Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Shelton, William (Streatham)
Havers, Sir Michael Mayhew, Patrick Shepherd, Colin
Hawkins, Paul Meyer, Sir Anthony Shersby, Michael
Hayhoe, Barney Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Silvester, Fred
Heath, Rt Hon Edward Mills, Peter Sims, Roger
Henderson, Douglas Miscampbell, Norman Sinclair, Sir George
Heseltine, Michael Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Skeet, T. H. H.
Hicks, Robert Moate, Roger Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Higgins, Terence L. Molyneaux, James Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
Holland, Philip Monro, Hector Speed, Keith
Hooson, Emlyn Montgomery, Fergus Spence, John
Hordern, Peter Moore, John (Croydon C) Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey More, Jasper (Ludlow) Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Howell, David (Guildford) Morgan, Geraint Sproat, Iain
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral Stainton, Keith
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Morris, Michael (Northampton S) Stanbrook, Ivor
Hunt, David (Wirral) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Stanley, John
Hunt, John (Bromley) Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Hurd, Douglas Mudd, David Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)
Hutchison, Michael Clark Neave, Airey Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Nelson, Anthony Stewart, Ian (Hltchin)
James, David Neubert, Michael Stokes, John
Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) Newton, Tony Stradling Thomas, J.
Jessel, Toby Normanton, Tom Tapsell, Peter
Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) Nott, John Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Onslow, Cranley Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Jones, Arthur (Daventry) Oppenheim, Mrs Sally Tebbit, Norman
Jopling, Michael Osborn, John Temple-Morris, Peter
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Page, John (Harrow West) Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Kaberry, Sir Donald Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Paisley, Rev Ian Thompson, George
Kershaw, Anthony Pardoe, John Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Kilfedder, James Pattie, Geoffrey Townsend, Cyril D.
Kimball, Marcus Penhaligon, David Trotter, Neville
King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Percival, Ian Tugendhat, Christopher
King, Tom (Bridgwater) Peyton, Rt Hon John van Straubenzee, W. R.
Kirk, Sir Peter Pink, R. Bonner Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Kitson, Sir Timothy Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch Viggers, Peter
Knight, Mrs Jill Price, David (Eastleigh) Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Knox, David Prior, Rt Hon James Wakeham, John
Lamont, Norman Pym, Rt Hon Francis Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Lane, David Raison, Timothy Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
Langford-Holt, Sir John Rathbone, Tim Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Latham, Michael (Melton) Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter Wall, Patrick
Lawrence, Ivan Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Walters, Dennis
Lawson, Nigel Rees-Oavies, W. R. Warren, Kenneth
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Reid, George Watt, Hamish
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) Weatherill, Bernard
Lloyd, Ian Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) Wells, John
Loveridge, John Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Welsh, Andrew
Luce, Richard Ridley, Hon Nicholas Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
McAdden, Sir Stephen Ridsdale, Julian Wiggin, Jerry
MacCormlck, Iain Rifklnd, Malcolm Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
McCrindle, Robert Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey Winterton, Nicholas
McCusker, H. Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Wood, Rt Hon Richard
Macfarlane, Nell Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
MacGregor, John Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Younger, Hon George
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Ross, William (Londonderry) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and
Madel, David Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) Mr. Cecil Parkinson.
NOES
Abse, Leo Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Buchan, Norman
Allaun, Frank Bidwell, Sydney Buchanan, Richard
Anderson, Donald Bishop, E. S. Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)
Archer, Peter Blenkinsop, Arthur Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)
Armstrong, Ernest Boardman, H. Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)
Ashley, Jack Booth, Rt Hon Albert Campbell, Ian
Ashton, Joe Boothroyd, Miss Betty Canavan, Dennis
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Cant, R. B.
Atkinson, Norman Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Carmichael, Neil
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Bradley, Tom Carter, Ray
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Bray, Dr Jeremy Carter-Jones, Lewis
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) Broughton, Sir Alfred Cartwright, John
Bates, Alf Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Castle, Rt Hon Barbara
Bean, R. E. Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Clemitson, Ivor
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)
Cohen, Stanley Hughes, Mark (Durham) Owen, Dr David
Coleman, Donald Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Padley, Walter
Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Hughes, Roy (Newport) Palmer, Arthur
Concannon, J. D. Hunter, Adam Park, George
Conlan, Bernard Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) Parker, John
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) Parry, Robert
Corbett, Robin Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) Pavitt, Laurie
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Peart, Rt Hon Fred
Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) Junner, Greville Pendry, Tom
Crawshaw, Richard Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Perry, Ernest
Cronin, John Jeger, Mrs Lena Phipps, Dr Colin
Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford) Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) John, Brynmor Prescott, John
Cryer, Bob Johnson, James (Hull West) Price, C. (Lewisham W)
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Price, William (Rugby)
Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiten) Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Radice, Giles
Dalyell, Tarn Jones, Barry (East Flint) Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)
Davidson, Arthur Jones, Dan (Burnley) Richardson, Miss Jo
Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) Judd, Frank Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Kaufman, Gerald Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kelley, Richard Robertson, John (Paisley)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Kerr, Russell Robinson, Geoffrey
Deakins, Eric Kilroy-Sllk, Robert Roderick, Caerwyn
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Kinnock, Neil Rodgers, George (Chorley)
de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Lambie, David Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Dell, Rt Hon Edmund Lamborn, Harry Rooker, J. W.
Dempsey, James Lamond, James Roper, John
Doig, Peter Latham, Arthur (Paddington) Rose, Paul B.
Dormand, J. D. Leadbitter, Ted Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Lee, John Rowlands, Ted
Duffy, A. E. P. Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Sandelson, Neville
Dunn, James A. Lever, Rt Hon Harold Sedgemore, Brian
Dunnett, Jack Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) Selby, Harry
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)
Eadie, Alex Lipton, Marcus Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)
Edge, Geoff Litterick, Tom Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Edwards Robert (Wolv SE) Lomas, Kenneth Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)
Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) Loyden, Eddie Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Luard, Evan Silkln, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
English, Michael Lyon, Alexander (York) Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Ennals, David Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) Sillars, James
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Mabon, Dr J. Dickson Silverman, Julius
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) McCartney, Hugh Skinner, Dennis
Evans, John (Newton) McDonald, Miss Oonagh Small, William
Ewing, Harry (Stirling) MacFarquhar, Roderick Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Faulds, Andrew McGuire, Michael (Ince) Snape, Peter
Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. MacKenzie, Gregor Spearing, Nigel
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mackintosh, John P. Spriggs, Leslie
Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W) Maciennan, Robert Stallard, A. W.
Flannery, Martin McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)
Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston) McNamara, Kevin Stoddart, David
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Madden, Max Stott, Roger
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Magee, Bryan Strang, Gavin
Ford, Ben Maguire, Frank (Fermanagh) Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.
Forrester, John Mahon, Simon Summersklll, Hon Dr Shirley
Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) Mallalleu, J. P. W. Swain, Thomas
Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) Marks, Kenneth Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Freeson, Reginald Marquand, David Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
George, Bruce Mason, Rt Hon Roy Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Gilbert, Dr John Maynard, Miss Joan Tierney, Sydney
Ginsburg, David Meacher, Michael Tinn, James
Golding, John Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Tomlinson, John
Gould, Bryan Mendelson, John Tomney, Frank
Gourlay, Harry Mikardo, Ian Torney, Tom
Graham, Ted Milian, Bruce Tuck, Raphael
Grant, George (Morpeth) Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Urwin, T. W.
Grant, John (Islington C) Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Grocotf, Bruce Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Wainwrlght, Edwin (Dearne V)
Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Moonman, Eric Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)
Hardy, Peter Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Hart, Rt Hon Judith Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Ward, Michael
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Moyle, Roland Watkins, David
Hatton, Frank Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Watkinson, John
Hayman, Mrs Helens Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Weetch, Ken
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Newens, Stanley Weitzman, David
Heffer, Eric S. Noble, Mike Wellbeloved, James
Hooley, Frank Oakes, Gordon White, Frank R. (Bury)
Horam, John Ogden, Eric White, James (Pollok)
Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm'H) O'Halloran, Michael Whitehead, Phillip
Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Orbach, Maurice Whitlock, William
Huckfield, Les Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Ovenden, John Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) Wise, Mrs Audrey
Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) Woodall, Alec TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Williams, Sir Thomas Woof, Robert Mr James Hamilton and
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) Wrigglesworth, Ian Mr. Joseph Harper.
Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) Young, David (Bolton E)
Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Question accordingly negatived.
Main Question put accordingly:—
The House divided: Ayes 311, Noes 305.
Division No. 261.] AYES [10.45 p.m.
Abse, Leo de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Janner, Grevilie
Aliaun, Frank Dell, Rt Hon Edmund Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Anderson, Donald Dempsey, James Jeger, Mrs Lena
Archer, Peter Doig, Peter Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford)
Armstrong, Ernest Dormand, J. D. John, Brynmor
Ashley, Jack Douglas-Mann, Bruce Johnson, James (Hull West)
Ashton, Joe Duffy, A. E. P. Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Dunn, James A. Jones, Alec (Rhondda)
Atkinson, Norman Dunnett, Jack Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Eadie, Alex Judd, Frank
Barnett. Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) Edge, Geoff Kaufman, Gerald
Bates, Alf Edwards Robert (Wolv SE) Kelley, Richard
Bean, R. E. Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) Kerr, Russell
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) English, Michael Kinnock, Neil
Bidwell, Sydney Ennais, David Lambie, David
Bishop, E. S. Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Lamborn, Harry
Blenkinsop, Arthur Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Lamond, James
Boardman, H. Evans, John (Newton) Latham, Arthur (Paddington)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Ewing, Harry (Stirling) Leadbitter, Ted
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Faulds, Andrew Lee, John
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Lever, Rt Hon Harold
Bradley, Tom Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W) Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Flannery, Martin Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Broughton, Sir Alfred Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston) Lipton, Marcus
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Litterick, Tom
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Foot, Rt Hon Michael Lomas, Kenneth
Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) Ford, Ben Loyden, Eddie
Buchan, Norman Forrester, John Luard, Evan
Buchanan, Richard Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) Lyon, Alexander (York)
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Freeson, Reginald Mabon, Dr J. Dickson
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Garrett, John (Norwich S) McCartney, Hugh
Campbell, Ian Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) McDonald, Miss Oonagh
Canavan, Dennis George, Bruce MacFarquhar, Roderick
Cant, R. B. Gilbert, Dr John McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Carmichael, Neil Ginsburg, David MacKenzie, Gregor
Carter, Ray Golding, John Mackintosh, John P.
Carter-Jones, Lewis Gould, Bryan Maclennan, Robert
Cartwrlght, John Gourlay, Harry McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Graham, Ted McNamara, Kevin
Clemitson, Ivor Grant, George (Morpeth) Madden, Max
Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) Grant, John (Islington C) Magee, Bryan
Cohen, Stanley Grocott, Bruce Maguire, Frank (Fermanagh)
Coleman, Donald Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Mahon, Simon
Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Hardy, Peter Mallalleu, J. P. W.
Concannon, J. D. Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Marks, Kenneth
Conlan, Bernard Hart, Rt Hon Judith Marquand, David
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Corbett, Robin Hatton, Frank Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Hayman, Mrs Helene Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) Healey, Rt Hon Denis Maynard, Miss Joan
Crawshaw, Richard Heffer, Eric S. Meacher, Michael
Cronin, John Hooley, Frank Mellish, Rt Hon Robert
Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony Horam, John Mendelson, John
Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm'H) Mikardo, Ian
Cryer, Bob Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Millan, Bruce
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Huckfield, Les Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)
Dalyell, Tarn Hughes, Mark (Durham) Mitchell, R. C. (Solon, Itchen)
Davidson, Arthur Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Moonman, Eric
Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Hunter, Adam Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) Moyle, Roland
Deakins, Eric Jackson, Colin (BrighouM) Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King
Newens, Stanley Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Tomney, Frank
Noble, Mike Rowlands, Ted Torney, Tom
Oakes, Gordon Sandelson, Neville Tuck, Raphael
Ogden, Eric Sedgemore, Brian Urwin, T. W.
O'Halloran, Michael Selby, Harry Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Orbach, Maurice Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)
Ovenden, John Shore, Rt Hon Peter Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Owen, Dr David Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Padley, Walter Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) Ward, Michael
Palmer, Arthur Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) Watkins, David
Park, George Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Watkinson, John
Parker, John Sillars, James Weetch, Ken
Parry, Robert Silverman, Julius Weitzman, David
Pavitt, Laurie Skinner, Dennis Wellbeloved, James
Pearl, Rt Hon Fred Small, William White, Frank R. (Bury)
Pendry, Tom Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) White, James (Pollok)
Perry, Ernest Snape, Peter Whitehead, Phillip
Phipps, Dr Colin Spearing, Nigel Whitlock, William
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Spriggs, Leslie Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Prescott, John Stallard, A. W. Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Price, C. (Lewisham W) Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Price, William (Rugby) Sloddart, David Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)
Radice, Giles Stott, Roger Williams, Sir Thomas
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Strang, Gavin Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Richardson, Miss Jo Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Swain, Thomas Wise, Mrs Audrey
Robertson, John (Paisley) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) Woodall, Alec
Robinson, Geoffrey Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) Woof, Robert
Roderick, Caerwyn Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Rodgers, George (Chorley) Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) Young, David (Bolton E)
Rodgers, William (Stockton) Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Rooker, J. W. Tierney, Sydney TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Roper, John Tinn, James Mr. James Hamilton and
Rose, Paul B. Tomlinson, John Mr. Joseph Harper.
NOES
Adley, Robert Cope, John Goodlad, Alastair
Aitken, Jonathan Cardle, John H. Gorst, John
Alison, Michael Cormack, Patrick Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Costain, A. P. Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)
Arnold, Tom Crawford, Douglas Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Critchley, Julian Gray, Hamish
Awdry, Daniel Crouch, David Griffiths, Eldon
Bain, Mrs Margaret Crowder, F. P. Grimond, Rt Hon J.
Baker, Kenneth Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) Grist, Ian
Banks, Robert Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Grylls, Michael
Beith, A. J. Dodsworth, Geoffrey Hall, Sir John
Bell, Ronald Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Drayson, Burnaby Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Hampson, Dr Keith
Benyon, W. Dunlop, John Hannam, John
Biffen, John Durant, Tony Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)
Biggs-Davison, John Dykes, Hugh Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss
Blaker, Peter Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Hastings, Stephen
Body, Richard Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Havers, Sir Michael
Boscawen, Hon Robert Elliott, Sir William Hawkins, Paul
Bottomley, Peter Emery, Peter Hayhoe, Barney
Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray) Heath, Rt Hon Edward
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Eyre, Reginald Henderson, Douglas
Bradford, Rev Robert Fairbairn, Nicholas Heseltine, Michael
Braine, Sir Bernard Fairgrieve, Russell Hicks, Robert
Brittan, Leon Farr, John Higgins, Terence L.
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Fell, Anthony Holland, Philip
Brotherton, Michael Finsberg, Geoffrey Hooson, Emlyn
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fisher, Sir Nigel Hordern, Peter
Bryan, Sir Paul Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Howell, David (Guildford)
Buck, Antony Fookes, Miss Janet Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Budgen, Nick Forman, Nigel Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)
Bulmer, Esmond Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) Hunt, David (Wirral)
Burden, F. A. Fox, Marcus Hunt, John (Bromley)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Hurd, Douglas
Carlisle, Mark Freud, Clement Hutchison, Michael Clark
Carson, John Fry, Peter Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. James, David
Channon, Paul Gardiner, George (Reigate) Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)
Churchill, W. S. Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Jessel, Toby
Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)
Clark, William (Croydon S) Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Glyn, Dr Alan Jones, Arthur (Daventry)
Clegg, Walter Godber, Rt Hon Joseph Jopling, Michael
Cockcroft, John Goodhart, Philip Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Goodhew, Victor Kaberry, Sir Donald
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Mudd, David Sinclair, Sir George
Kershaw, Anthony Neave, Airey Skeet, T. H. H.
Kilfedder, James Nelson, Anthony Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Kimball, Marcus Neubert, Michael Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Newton, Tony Speed, Keith
King, Tom (Bridgwater) Normanton, Tom Spence, John
Kirk, Sir Peter Nott, John Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Kitson, Sir Timothy Onslow, Cranley Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Knight, Mrs Jill Oppenheim, Mrs Sally Sproat, Iain
Knox, David Osborn, John Stainton, Keith
Lamont, Norman Page, John (Harrow West) Stanbrook, Ivor
Lane, David Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Stanley, John
Langford-Holt, Sir John Paisley, Rev Ian Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Latham, Michael (Melton) Pardoe, John Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)
Lawrence, Ivan Parkinson, Cecil Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Lawson, Nigel Pattle, Geoffrey Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Penhaligon, David Stokes, John
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Percival, Ian Stradling Thomas, J.
Lloyd, Ian Peyton, Rt Hon John Tapsell, Peter
Loveridge, John Pink, R. Bonner Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)
Luce, Richard Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
McAdden, Sir Stephen Price, David (Eastleigh) Tebbit, Norman
MacCormick, Iain Prior, Rt Hon James Temple-Morris, Peter
McCrindle, Robert Pym, Rt Hon Francis Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
McCusker, H. Raison, Timothy Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
Macfarlane, Nell Rathbone, Tim Thompson, George
MacGregor, John Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Townsend, Cyril D.
McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Rees-Davies, W. R. Trotter, Neville
McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Reid, George Tugendhat, Christopher
Madel, David Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Marten, Neil Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Viggers, Peter
Mates, Michael Ridley, Hon Nicholas Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Mather, Carol Ridsdale, Julian Wakeham, John
Maude, Angus Rifkind, Malcolm Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
Mawby, Ray Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Maxwell-Hysiop, Robin Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Wall, Patrick
Mayhew, Patrick Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Walters, Dennis
Meyer, Sir Anthony Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Warren, Kenneth
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Ross, William (Londonderry) Watt, Hamish
Mills, Peter Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Weatherill, Bernard
Miscampbell, Norman Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) Wells, John
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Royle, Sir Anthony Welsh, Andrew
Moate, Roger Sainsbury, Tim Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Molyneaux, James St. John-Stevas, Norman Wiggin, Jerry
Monro, Hector Scott, Nicholas Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Montgomery, Fergus Scott-Hopkins, James Winterton, Nicholas
Moore, John (Croydon C) Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) Wood, Rt Hon Richard
More, Jasper (Ludlow) Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Morgan, Geraint Shelton, William (Streatham) Younger, Hon George
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral Shepherd, Colin
Morris, Michael (Northampton S) Shersby, Michael TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Silvester, Fred Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and
Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Sims, Roger Mr. Anthony Berry.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ordered, That the following provisions shall apply to the remaining proceedings on the Bills:—