Security (Hansard, 22 January 1976)

HC Deb 22 January 1976 vol 903 cc1513-9 1513

§ 1. Mr. Michael Latham asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a further statement on the security situation.

§ 2. Mr. Marten asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ 4. Mr. Beith asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation.

§ 10. Dr. Glyn asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation in the South Armagh area.

§ 17. Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement about the security situation in the Province.

§ 21. Mr. Carson asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Merlyn Rees)
During the course of 1975, there was a marked change in the nature of violence, much of it being of a sectarian nature. There were fewer explosions, but more deaths as compared with 1974. The security forces met with great success and during the course of the year 1,197 persons were charged with terrorist-type offences.
Since the New Year, there have been some particularly horrific events, notably the murder of five Catholics at Whitecross and near Lurgan, and the murder of ten 1514 Protestants near Bessbrook. In addition, a soldier was killed in Londonderry and a policeman near Toome.
As regards the special situation in County Armagh, I would refer to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 12th January 1976—[Vol. 903, c. 27–30]. The security forces there have been reinforced and maintain an increased level of activity.
The security forces continue to meet with success in bringing suspected terrorists before the courts. Since the beginning of the year, 38 persons have been charged with terrorist type offences, including five with murder and one with attempted murder.

§ Mr. Latham
Is it now clearly established that the security forces are not simply reacting to the level of violence, a policy which arguably leaves the initiative to the enemy, but are finding terrorists at every opportunity, not simply depending on the IRA's profile from day to day?

§ Mr. Rees
The security forces are well aware of their task. The fact that so many people are going through the courts is an indication of the success of the security forces. Arising from the events of the last few weeks, about 20 men are being looked for in South Armagh. It is wrong to believe that the situation would be dealt with by the Army using greater numbers. We needed a greater Army presence there and have got it. However, it would be playing into the hands of the Provisional IRA to believe that finding a small number of people who are difficult to discover would necessarily be made easier by having more soldiers.

§ Mr. Marten
Although it is essential to have a firm political decision on Northern Ireland, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that there are sufficient troops in that area to carry out the surveillance role promised by the Prime Minister to take the follow-through role necessary in respect of those who are being rounded up? Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up the SAS question?

§ Mr. Rees
I am satisfied, as are my security advisers, that there are sufficient troops in the area. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the follow-through procedure and, obviously, the nature of the area needs to be borne in mind. The fact that a small number of men can travel 1515 backwards and forwards across the border and the fact that there is support for them in the community generally—perhaps "hostile community" is too strong a phrase—indicates the nature of the problem. We must face the fact that over many decades, not just in the last year or two, South Armagh has been a problem for the Irish authorities as well as for the United Kingdom. Indeed, the problem has existed for the last 200 or 300 years and the situation is peculiar in that sense. The IRA would be pleased if we were to draw more troops into that area and away from the urban areas.

§ Mr. Carson
In view of the recent increase in the amount of violence in north Belfast, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the border RUC station at Fort William, to replace the station blown up by the IRA, will soon be reestablished and occupied?

§ Mr. Rees
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's proper concern for north Belfast. That area is a different type of area from South Armagh. In north Belfast there are violence and terrorism by Protestant para-militaries. In the recent past there have been some nasty murders in the area mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, and we are discussing the problem of Fort William with the Chief Constable.

§ Mr. Beith
As the border cannot be continuously manned or sealed, does the Secretary of State agree that the search operation cannot be pursued successfully unless the maximum amount of random searching takes place on the border on both sides? From a manpower point of view, is it not important that the Irish Government should reconsider their attitude to the use of troops and police on their side of the border? Would it not be better if the Irish Army could undertake separate searches in addition to the police rather than having to operate together, thus avoiding the waste of valuable manpower?

§ Mr. Rees
I know that the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) has recently visited both sides of the border, and I appreciate his comment about random searches. A few days ago, a vast supply of explosives, amounting to six months' supply, was found by the Army. That find will obviously save the lives of large numbers of people. I agree that random searches are important. 1516 Since the meeting that I had at Baldonnel a year ago last September, there has been close co-operation between the Garda and the RUC. There is no co-operation with the Army except through the police. The Irish Government, for constitutional reasons and for reasons of their law, as they put it, are prepared to co-operate to the full police to police, but not army to army.

§ Mr. Flannery
Does my right hon. Friend agree that although he is doing everything in his power to help within the framework of the security situation, it is the hope of all people on both sides that when the Convention is recalled, political arrangements can be made between the two main sides, because that would reduce the necessity for security forces, at least in time?

§ Mr. Powell
No.

§ Mr. Rees
I have little doubt that until the minority community and its representatives, not just politicians, are prepared to work for Northern Ireland and to feel that they belong to Northern Ireland, security will be very difficult. On the other hand, I also have no doubt—and this is not contradictory—that if there were agreement among politicians in the North tomorrow morning, it would spark the Provisional IRA to even greater violence, because it does not want a political solution. However, if the two communities were working against the Provisional IRA, it could be defeated.

§ Dr. Glyn
The Minister has said that the security forces are searching for only about 20 people in South Armagh, so will he not reconsider sealing the border completely? This would be an expensive operation to begin with, but might it not save a number of lives in the end? Will the right hon. Gentleman re-emphasise that although there may be sympathy for the IRA in South Armagh, there is no question of Great Britain doing a deal with Southern Ireland to swap South Armagh for something else?

§ Mr. Rees
There would be great difficulty about doing a swap of South Armagh with anybody. It is no good hon. Members talking about sealing the border as if we were discussing East or West Germany. I have discussed this 1517 matter with my security advisers. The manpower required and the nature of the border require action to be selective. As has been shown recently, arms as well as terrorists come across the border. If I may say so to the hon. Member, for whom I have great respect, sealing the border is a pipe dream. In politics we hear many simple answers that are wrong; there are no simple answers to military problems, either.

§ Mr. Kilfedder
Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that it was purely by chance that 21 tons of explosives were seized at the border? Does not that indicate that the IRA believes that it can carry explosives on the main road from Dublin to Belfast with impunity? While he may not be able to close the the border entirely, could not the right hon. Gentleman increase the number of patrols, so that all traffic can be stopped and properly searched?

§ Mr. Rees
The fact that the explosives were found shows that the IRA cannot move them with impunity. The statistics of the amount of arms found in the course of a year show a remarkable story. I am advised that random searches and spot checks are far better than having traffic on the main road stopped constantly. The para-militaries would then move in from other directions. It is far better to entice them on to the main road and then to impede them. That is the firm advice that I get. It is not a political but a military judgment. I believe that it is right.

§ Mr. Neave
In his original reply the Minister referred to the incident when a soldier was shot at a checkpoint in Londonderry. Does he not agree that this is a very disturbing incident? I know that an Army investigation is taking place, but can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that precautions will be taken to prevent this sort of incident, in which two soldiers were also injured, happening again? Does the recent seizure of explosives form part of the subject of the Government's representations to Dublin at the present time?

§ Mr. Rees
I would not say that we were making representations, because that assumes that there is no contact. There is, in fact, daily contact about our arms finds and information, particularly 1518 about Frangex, which is made in the South. In the past year co-operation about identification has been excellent.
The Army will be investigating the incident in which young people who, it seems, went back to the Bogside, were able to fire at three British soldiers at a checkpoint. There has been a disturbing feature in the past three weeks. Just as sectarian murders emerged as the major factor last year, explosions in Belfast and Derry, one of which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) knows about, because his wife was nearly involved, are showing up the youth of those concerned and the education that they have recently completed. A girl of 14 carrying weapons was recently stopped by soldiers at two o'clock in the morning.
The involvement of young people in Northern Ireland terrorism has been one of the most disturbing features in the early part of the year. It is easy to talk about education in youth clubs, but the problem is much deeper than that. It is about these young people belonging to a cause. They must believe in it or they would not put themselves in the position of a girl of 17 recently, who was blown to Kingdom come when a bomb she was planting went off.

§ Mr. Hardy
A greater harmony and will for peace appears to exist in Londonderry and the north-west of Northern Ireland. Does my right hon. Friend feel that this latest outrage in Londonderry represents an unfortunate turning point in this situation?

§ Mr. Rees
I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned that. Northern Ireland is relatively small and it is easy to make trite remarks and say that Deny is different from Belfast, but there is far less secretarianism in Derry. There has always been co-operation between the communities in the past. Whether through trade unions or the clergy, there has always been a drawing together and a condemnation of what has gone on. This is excellent. But the fact that young kids can come in and kill is a development that mere words will not stop, and we must find a means of stopping it.

§ Mr. McNair-Wilson
I welcome the success of the security forces, but is it the Secretary of State's judgment that 1519 the overall security situation is improving? Can he confirm whether one infantry battalion is part of the temporary reinforcements sent to Northern Ireland? Will he also comment on what success there has been in handing the security role from the Army to the police?

§ Mr. Rees
I would not want to be drawn into using the word "improving". I learned early, before I had my present responsibilities, that a statistical improvement is of little comfort to those who may be suffering from a different form of violence. There has been a change in the nature of violence.
I must rely on the GOC to decide the number of soldiers he wants. It would be wrong to fix the number of soldiers in the Province and say that it will not be changed. One must be flexible.
There has certainly been a remarkable change in the success of the police. It would be idle to pretend that the police are the major force in South Armagh, although certainly the major force in North Armagh, where there have been some ghastly murders by Protestants. There are some parts of Belfast where the police are not the major force, but I am sure we have to achieve primacy of the police.
What matters is the acceptance of the police. We have some acceptance from the minority, who have given support and information, but there is still not general acceptance of the RUC, for reasons of history, and we must overcome that if we are to succeed.