HC Deb 22 January 1976 vol 903 cc1519-24

3. Mr. Gow asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many secondary schools in Northern Ireland have a selective entry; and whether he will make a statement about Government policy towards these schools.

7. Mr. McCusker asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he hopes to announce the ending of the 11-plus selection procedure in Northern Ireland.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Roland Moyle)

Of the 260 grant-aided secondary schools in Northern Ireland, 80 are grammar schools, and about 75 per cent. of the pupils admitted to these grammar schools each year have received scholarships as a result of the selection procedure.

It is my view that Northern Ireland's secondary schools should be reorganised on comprehensive lines. As I told the House on 3rd December 1975 the senior chief inspector is engaged in a feasibility study of the practicalities of reorganisation and is expected to report next March. Consultations will then be necessary with the various education interests concerned. The speed with which reorganisation can be effected and the future of the selection procedure will be determined when this exercise has been completed.—[Vol. 901, c. 1890.]

Mr. Gow

Bearing in mind the answer by the Secretary of State about the involvement of young people in violence in Northern Ireland, what contribution does the Minister think can be made in secondary schools towards eliminating that very disturbing trend? May we take it from his reply that the Government have no intention of introducing in Northern Ireland that policy of coercion in relation to the abolition of selection in secondary education that was announced for England and Wales in the Queen's Speech?

Mr. Moyle

The reorganisation of secondary education is not at such an advanced state in Northern Ireland as it is in England and Wales, and it is not therefore intended that legislation comparable with the Bill recently placed before this House will be introduced. The schools in Northern Ireland have a commendable record of protecting and guiding their pupils through the very nasty situation that often exists in the districts in which they live. The pressures for young people to take part in violent activities come from mostly outside the school and are to some extent counteracted by the dedicated work of the Northern Ireland teaching profession.

Mr. McCusker

Many people in Northern Ireland will welcome the Minister's statement about ending the selection procedure. However, apart from the education and social reasons for ending it, is he aware of the grave disquiet which exists and which resulted in abandonment of this year's selection procedure? Statistics the Minister gave me showed that cheating and abuse of the examination system in Londonderry had resulted in more than 200 pupils unfairly securing places in grammar schools, and the only people who have sufffered as a result are their co-religionists in rural areas who do not take part in this practice.

Mr. Moyle

As a result of our holding a new 11-plus selection examination tomorrow and on 6th February, no one not entitled to get into a grammar school will do so unfairly. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's support for the reorganisation of secondary education and the abolition of the 11-plus. The incidents to which he drew attention show the difficulties in operating the present 11-plus selection scheme and the serious practical forces operating against such a test.

Mr. Wm. Ross

Is the Minister aware that there are some primary schools in which over a period of years no pupil has passed the 11-plus? I refer to the school of St. Peter's and St. Paul's, Muldonagh, Claudy.

Mr. Moyle

It is not the practice of my Department to comment on the 11-plus results of any particular school.

5. Mr. Biggs-Davison asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the future of Harland and Wolff.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Stanley Orme)

Since 1st August, when I gave hon. Members a review of the position at Harland and Wolff, I have been in close touch with the company's affairs. When it became clear by the end of September that the company had fallen further behind in meeting its production targets, I initiated discussions with representatives of management and trade unions and emphasised the consequences of failure to improve performance. This led to the establishment of a joint productivity action group and I am glad to report that over the last three months there has been a noteworthy improvement in the throughput of steel.

This improvement will have a bearing on the review and updating of the company's corporate plan, which is in course of preparation. It would clearly be wrong for me to comment on the future of the company until I have had time to study the results of the review and to discuss them with representatives of management and the trade unions. It will be my intention to make a statement to the House as soon as possible thereafter.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Is the Minister of State aware that we appreciate his efforts for Harland and Wolff, particularly for worker-management co-operation, since the company means so much to Northern Ireland, where unemployment is above 11 per cent., this also being a company in which so much public money has been invested? Will he confirm that in recent months the production targets have been hit and that new equipment has been adopted? How is research proceeding into new types of vessel? The order book appears to be full until 1978, but have there been new orders since the new system was announced and adopted?

Mr. Orme

The hon. Member may be interested in the figures for the throughput of steel. When I raised this problem with the company last September the throughput was as high as 65 man-hours per ton. Last December it had been reduced to 45 man-hours per ton. That is a considerable improvement but in itself it does not resolve the problem. The throughout of steel does not include the finishing trades, and these must also be looked at.

The present orders will keep the company going until 1978. However, we must start taking new orders in 1976, based on the criteria laid down by my right hon. Friend. The company is competing in a difficult world market and it is against that background that we must examine the position. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that all aspects of diversification and other alternative forms of production are being examined.

Mr. Bradford

The Minister has referred to the productivity rate. Will he join me in congratulating the workers of Harland and Wolff on achieving such a dramatic improvement in recent months? Does he accept that the trade unionists involved in Harland and Wolff and in other industries in Northern Ireland insist upon the yard being included in the Government's proposals for the nationalisation of shipbuilding? Does he accept that failure to do so will be interpreted in Northern Ireland as a deliberate attempt by the British Government to divorce the economy of Northern Ireland from that of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Orme

In my initial reply I paid tribute to the noteworthy improvement in productivity. I am extremely pleased that this aspect has developed as far as it has.

As for the hon. Gentleman's second question, if he wants to see the yard close down, he should continue to advocate the policy that the yard should be included in the Government's proposals for nationalisation. It is a reality that we are trying to save the yard. We are trying to maintain the largest employer in Northern Ireland, and we are doing it against an extremly difficult background. The sort of argument put forward by the hon. Gentleman does not assist the situation. The yard is already fully publicly-owned. It is accountable to Parliament—I am answering today for it—and it employs a form of democracy that I should have thought the House would welcome.

Mr. Cryer

Will my right hon. Friend comment on industrial democracy in Harland and Wolff? Does he realise that many Government supporters welcome his pamphlet on industrial democracy and feel that the development of industrial democracy in Harland and Wolff might be a useful example for Northern Ireland to set the rest of the United Kingdom? Will my right hon. Friend comment on whether the AEUW rule book applies in Northern Ireland all its United Kingdom standards?

Mr. Orme

As an AEUW member, I had better not answer that question. I am sure that AEUW members will note what my hon. Friend has said. On the subject of industrial democracy, I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend and the House that at a mass meeting of shop stewards in the yard this morning the Government's proposals for full participation in industrial democracy were accepted. They are now prepared to accept five worker-directors on the board, and that is an issue that they have been discussing for some time.

I am greatly encouraged by this information. The trade unions have not found the discussions easy, but they have now grasped the nettle, and what they have agreed to do will be in the interests of not only industrial democracy but also Harland and Wolff.

Mr. Powell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford) implied that a nationalised shipbuilding industry would take no account of the prospects or conditions in the various areas in which shipbuilding plant and firms are situated? As I cannot believe that that is his intention, will he correct that impression?

Mr. Orme

The necessary restructuring which we have already undertaken would have been set back by the Government's proposals and the yard would have been made more vulnerable. The yard has its only chance of survival in a Northern Ireland context. I have devoted a great deal of time to getting an understanding and an agreement with the work people and management within the yard. That is why we have gone for full industrial participation. The Government have already committed money to Harland and Wolff and if Harland and Wolff had been brought into the ambit of a shipbuilding board that development would have been retarded, and that could only have been harmful to the company.

Back to