§ Rev. Ian Paisley(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the weekend violence in Northern Ireland.
§ The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Stanley Orme)My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for 944 Northern Ireland, who is still in Belfast, tells me that between 8 a.m. on Thursday 12th February and this morning there were in all 87 shooting incidents and 17 bomb explosions in Northern Ireland. Eight people were killed, including a Reserve policeman, and 40 injured, including seven members of the security forces. Most of the violence was concentrated in areas of Belfast and Londonderry where there were also a number of street disturbances involving young hooligans. As a result there was serious damage to property, especially in Londonderry. Twice Army posts were attacked by home-made mortars. On both occasions surrounding property was damaged. The property of both communities suffered.
Throughout the period the security forces maintained a high level of activity to prevent violence. They achieved considerable success against those responsible for what occurred. No fewer than 116 people have been charged so far with a variety of offences. On more than a dozen occasions suspected gunmen or bombers were caught red handed. While the security forces have been the targets for many of the attacks, the real sufferers have been the civilian population, particularly those living in the city of Londonderry and North and West Belfast.
§ Rev. Ian PaisleyWould the Minister of State not agree that when such violence is taking place in Northern Ireland it is imperative for a Minister of the Crown to be present in Northern Ireland, especially during the weekend when it was expected that there would be such a level of violence? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Northern Ireland Office put out a statement on Saturday saying that the Secretary of State was present in Northern Ireland but that afterwards, when my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Carson) and I visited Stormont Castle, we were told that the Secretary of State had gone home on Saturday morning? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that in future, instead of a young civil servant being in charge of Northern Ireland, a Minister of the Crown will be present at the weekend?
§ Mr. OrmeI feel that the House is entitled to an explanation in answer to 945 what the hon. Member has said. The facts are as follows: my right hon. Friend was in Northern Ireland on Friday morning, when he held a security conference. On Friday afternoon he went out on patrol with the Army in West Belfast. On Friday evening he was on patrol with the UDR in Belfast. He was discussing the security situation again on Saturday morning. He left Northern Ireland at midday and returned to England, still as the duty Minister, having seen the security forces and been reassured of what the position really was.
My right hon. Friend returned to Northern Ireland yesterday lunchtime. He held a security meeting with the Chief of Staff and GOC yesterday evening. He had a security conference this morning in Belfast. I must say to the hon. Gentleman and those of his friends who have been pressing to see the Secretary of State on matters which could have been dealt with by the security forces that they have not been helping the situation in the past few days.
It is not in the best interests of the House for the hon. Gentleman to go to Stormont Castle, as he did at 1.30 a.m. on Sunday, on a matter that could have been dealt with in the normal way, and then to harangue a young civil servant. No other United Kingdom Ministers have to put up with what Northern Ireland Ministers have to put up with from certain hon. Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies. If these hon. Members want to help the situation they might take that into account.
§ Mr. NeaveThe Minister of State has referred to the high level of activity of the security forces during the last few hours. Will he tell the House what is the Government's position with regard to the so-called Provisional cease-fire? Does this still affect the rôle and tactics of the security forces, who are increasingly coming under fire? Do the Government agree with Dr. Conor Cruise O'Brien in his weekend statement that a democratic State should never concede to terrorist demands and that mediation simply leads to an enhancement of the terrorists' prestige and encourages them?
§ Mr. OrmeThe Government have never conceded to terrorism nor do they 946 intend to do so. We have looked for a political solution and will continue to do so. That rather links with the hon. Gentleman's question about the ceasefire. The security forces are in a position to operate in any manner in which they desire to maintain security and law and order in Northern Ireland. That has been the position in the past few days and will remain so.
§ Mr. CorbettWould my right hon. Friend agree that it is quite disgraceful for the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) or any other hon. Member of this House to seek to use a difficult security situation in Northern Ireland for petty and cheap gain? Would my right hon. Friend confirm that the hon. Member and his friends would be far better employed helping the real interests of the people of Northern Ireland by seeking to achieve a sensible political solution?
§ Mr. OrmeI thank my hon. Friend for his comments. The answer to the second part of his question is in the affirmative. I must tell the House that the sort of representations that have been made to the Secretary of State in the last few days are of a kind that could have been dealt with in the normal manner. The security forces are available. The Secretary of State can be informed. There is nothing that could not have been dealt with. The only result of the action of the hon. Member and his friends has been to make life more difficult for Ministers. In present circumstances this is reprehensible.
§ Mr. ThorpeIs the Minister aware that it is appalling to suggest that the absence or incidence of violence in the Province is occasioned by the physical presence or absence of the Secretary of State—although there are certain people whose permanent absence from Northern Ireland would do a tremendous amount to relieve the tension? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that those who genuinely deplore acts of violence and who have never played any part in inciting them would make their greatest contribution by trying to bring all sections of the community together and bringing about genuine political co-operation? That is now in the hands of the majority of the people if they wish to do it.
§ Mr. OrmeI thank the right hon. Gentleman for the sentiments he has expressed. The House is aware that Ministers, and my right hon. Friend in particular, have been under considerable pressure. In the past two years my right hon. Friend probably has worked more weekends than any other Minister. Sometimes he has been on call day in and day out and has worked beyond the normal call of duty. Ministers are on immediate call. If they are not in Northern Ireland, aircraft are available to take them out. It is very strange that we never get these pressures from the RUC or the security forces or from many other politicians in Northern Ireland. They come from just a few.
§ Mr. CarsonI should like to express my deep sympathy to the relatives of my three constituents who were brutally murdered in Ligoniel last night.
Is the Minister aware that I contacted the police on several occasions on Friday and they said that there was a state of emergency? I contacted the Army, and the Army said that it had not the manpower to deal with the situation. A church in my constituency was left to burn because the fire brigade was not allowed to put it out. One hundred and thirty people employed by a large factory are out of work today because the security forces could not deal with the situation. Many homes have been bombed and wrecked and people have had to leave their homes. Many vehicles have been hijacked and burned. North Belfast was held to ransom by the IRA for three days.
It is deplorable that the Secretary of State should instruct and authorise civil servants to tell lies on his behalf—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Oh".]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must withdraw any suggestion that the Secretary of State has instructed people to tell lies.
§ Mr. CarsonWith great respect to you, Mr. Speaker, and with honesty to my constituency and the people in North Belfast who have suffered so much, I have no intention of withdrawing—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I know that the hon. Gentleman is speaking with feeling and considerable emotion, but he must withdraw his statement.
§ Mr. CarsonI am sorry, but I cannot withdraw, because it was a question of deliberate lies on behalf of the Secretary of State—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The troubles we are discussing are serious enough without our running away from parliamentary procedure. I give the hon. Gentleman another opportunity to withdraw his statement.
§ Mr. CarsonI will submit to you, Mr. Speaker, and say that misinformation was given to me. That is as much as I can do—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The House must bear in mind the tension under which the hon. Gentleman is speaking, as with anyone connected with Northern Ireland. I gather from what the hon. Gentleman has said that he is withdrawing his statement that lies were told.
§ Mr. CarsonI am very grateful to you, Mr. Speaker; I appreciate it.
Is the Minister aware that in the past three weeks the Secretary of State met the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) a considerable number of times over the Stagg affair, yet when my constituency is burned and my constituents die and the place is held to ransom by the IRA the Secretary of State refuses to meet us, and the Army and the police say that they cannot deal with the situation?
§ Mr. OrmeI shall leave the House to judge the hon. Gentleman's statements against the record and background of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It would perhaps be an interesting exercise to put in the Library a document showing the number of times that the Secretary of State and other Ministers have met the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. I appreciate his feelings about the deaths which occurred in his constituency last night. However, to say that the situation is due to the security forces not being in control, that the security forces are not operating in a correct manner and have not the necessary facilities, is completely untrue. There is not a vestige of truth in that.
§ Rev. Ian PaisleyThe people who jeered to day were not burying their constituents at the weekend.