HC Deb 16 February 1976 vol 905 cc938-43
The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn)

With permission, I shall now answer Questions Nos. 11, 20 and 37.

The Government recognised last summer that many of the poorer consumers would face serious problems in adjusting their budgets to cope with the very much higher fuel bills that would reach them this winter. I discussed this problem with the electricity and gas supply industries then, and they have been most helpful and sensitive in their handling of this matter. As hon. Members will know, there are standing liaison arrangements whereby the boards identify cases of potential hardship for handling by the social services departments and distinguish them from those other cases where payment, though difficult, does not constitute hardship. In particular the Supplementary Benefits Commission and the gas and electricity authorities have worked out arrangements which will help to avoid disconnections for people entitled to supplementary benefit, and there have been discussions with the citizens advice bureaux about advice to those in difficulties.

The House will wish to express appreciation for the initiatives which the industries, the Supplementary Benefits Commission and the welfare agencies have taken in these matters.

The recent cold spell has, however, prompted special concern about the problems of one group in particular—the older people who are so vulnerable to extreme cold, but who might be led by a combination of anxiety and a sense of public responsibility into undue economies which might hazard their health or life.

I have recently discussed these problems with the industries again. I find that the number of householders consisting solely of pensioners who have been disconnected by either industry in the whole of England and Wales is tiny. However, in addition there are very many old people who are worried about their ability to pay promptly and fear of disconnection.

Clearly in the long run fuel bills must be paid by one means or another. But to relieve one of the anxieties of the aged for the time being I have asked the industries to suspend between now and the beginning of June, the disconnections of households which can show that all the members in receipt of income are pensioners over retirement pensionable age. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has asked the Scottish electricity boards to make similar arrangements.

This will give the industries and the pensioners an opportunity to work out practicable methods of payment. At the same time I have asked my noble Friend Lord Lovell-Davis to undertake an informal review of the payment and collection arrangements in conjunction with the gas and electricity industries and the others and to report on any further procedures which may be desirable, including methods of making the available facilities more widely known and used. This review and the submissions made in the course of it, which I intend to make public, will be complementary to the report which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection has requested the National Consumer Council to make on the impact of fuel costs on the budgets of low income households.

These arrangements, within a very limited scale, will not solve the hardship problems of consumers in other groups, but I am confident that the public at large will recognised the special case for relieving old people of some of their problems and anxieties and that the industries and the social welfare agencies will continue to deal sympathetically and sensitively with the problems of other consumers for whom hardship could arise.

These new arrangements which I have asked the boards to introduce are designed to help pensioners and give them a little extra time to adjust to the present difficult situation.

Mr. Madden

Would my right hon. Friend accept the undoubted welcome that his statement will receive throughout the country? However, is he satisfied with the co-ordination arrangements among Government Departments with responsibilities in these matters? What steps will be taken to give those most at risk the information contained in this statement, since many have little contact with neighbours or access to the media? What other measures which are important to the overall problem are being pursued as a matter of urgency?

Mr. Benn

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said and for his own efforts in this direction. The co-ordination is going on: there are continual contacts about this matter. As for the access of those concerned to this information, we shall do all we can to see that this statement is widely reported. Of course, if the fear of disconnection is lifted, that is the most important thing. Many of the matters to which my hon. Friend refers will be considered by Lord Lovell-Davis as well as in the National Consumer Council study.

Mr. Gow

I also welcome the right hon. Gentleman's statement. How many deaths due to hypothermia have been notified to his Department since 1st October last? When future gas and electricity bills are sent out, could they contain the statement that where pensioners are the sole occupiers of a consuming household, there will be no disconnection until June?

Mr. Benn

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I am afraid that I cannot answer his question about hypothermia cases, which are not confined to old people or to the winter and which cannot all be attributed by any means to fuel bills. But I hope to do at least as well as the hon. Gentleman would like by ensuring that all engineers who would conduct disconnections are aware of what I have said. Over the last few months, the evidence is that in whole areas of the country, to the knowledge of the boards, no pensioners are being disconnected at the moment. But this statement will lift anxiety from many others.

Mr. Ridsdale

While one welcomes the right hon. Gentleman's proposals, would he examine the fact that some pensioners are having to be asked for maintenance charges for gas leaks and that £7 or £8 for such bills is a high charge for a pensioner?

Mr. Benn

I am aware that there is a number of difficulties, including the report, which is now being examined, that charges are made for the emptying of gas meters which may fill before the end of the quarter. One of the reasons that I have asked Lord Lovell-Davis to look into this matter in conjunction with the industries is that I thought that we might pick up some of these difficulties as a byproduct of such a review.

Dr. Edmund Marshall

Will my right hon. Friend consult the Secretary of State for the Environment about the possibility of providing special Government assistance to local housing authorities which own old people's bungalows and flats, where work on insulation or on providing alternative heating systems would greatly reduce the dangers of hypothermia?

Mr. Benn

I appreciate what my hon. Friend says. Nothing that I have said indicates that I do not take this matter seriously. In the long term—it must necessarily be in the long term—we shall aim to have houses and industrial buildings which are properly insulated but this will take sometime. I also hope to get houses with flues built again, so that people can burn coal in their homes, which has not been possible in some accommodation built in recent years. But these are mid-to long-term problems which we need to tackle. I hope that what I have done this winter will provide some immediate relief of anxiety.

Mr. Kilfedder

The right hon. Gentleman deserves the greatest praise for his thoughtful action. Will his statement apply to Northern Ireland, where electricity costs are higher? So far as I know, weekly benefit for heating for old-age pensioners is based on an average throughout the year, but old people cannot budget, especially with inflation, which means that the money that they are supposed to save to pay higher fuel bills just is not there. Would he examine that matter as well?

Mr. Benn

I have consulted the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland before making this statement, although I should not like to announce on his behalf the exact implications of what I have said for Northern Ireland. But I am well aware of the hon. Member's point about budgets, that it is difficult, if a family have or a person has planned expenditure on energy over a number of years, to face a sudden increase of this magnitude. Many people still do not know the cost of using appliances that they may have had for many years. Providing time for adjustment, as well as sensitivity in handling these matters, seems to me the most useful thing to be done in the interim.

Mr. Atkinson

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this situation shows the weakness of withdrawing subsidies from essential services in a Welfare State? Would not he also agree that if we are to allocate the resources according to need, his position contradicts the Government's decision not to go ahead with the idea of paying a bonus to pensioners this month?

Mr. Benn

I am not able to add to what has been said already on the latter point of my hon. Friend's question. As for the issue of subsidies, when energy costs rise and when the saving of energy is all-important, short, medium and long term, it is, perhaps, better that the Government should make such help as may be needed available in cases where that need can be established. It is on that basis that we have been proceeding.

I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend has said, namely that the combination of a return to economic pricing and an increase in fuel costs has made things difficult. There is no point in looking at these problems as if they were just profit and loss accountancy matters without having regard to the human factors that must be taken into account.

Mr. Biffen

Would the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the widespread welcome for his statement derives from the fact that the problem has excited great concern in all parts of the House? Will he further accept that there will be great anxiety that the review to be carried out by Lord Lovell-Davis should proceed with the utmost expedition? Will he further acknowledge that we perfectly appreciate that the main concern of his statement is to enable the elderly to have time to adjust to the transformed fuel charge situation and we welcome the fact that this is not being used as an excuse to retreat from the objective of economic pricing for the nationalised industries?

Mr. Benn

This is the first time that I have had the opportunity of replying to a supplementary question from the hon. Gentleman since he was appointed to his Front Bench position. I am grateful for what he has said. I stress that my statement is a modest one. I do not want anyone to be under any misapprehension about that. No doubt on other occasions the complex matters of energy pricing will be discussed. I look forward to debating such matters with the hon. Gentleman in a rather more serious mood than has sometimes been possible with his colleagues.

Several Hon. Members

rose——

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot debate this matter now. The Minister did not make a statement; he answered Questions.

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