HC Deb 05 November 1975 vol 899 cc376-8
3. Mr. Walter Johnson

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has had with the Chairman of British Railways concerning the reduction and curtailment of services; and if he will make a statement.

Dr. Gilbert

The Chairman has informed me of the general lines of the management action the board proposes to take so as to meet its financial targets.

Mr. Johnson

Is the Minister aware that the Government's railways policy is having a disastrous effect on passenger and freight receipts, despite an increase in charges of 48 per cent. last year? Does he realise that the Government are on a collision course with the railway unions and the public over any cut-back in services? I warn the Government that they will face a fight from the unions and the public, not only on any cut-back, but on any reduction in services. There must not be another Beeching.

Dr. Gilbert

My hon. Friend will be aware that the passenger deficit this year is running at £330 million and the freight deficit at £70 million. I assure him that all the trade unions represented in the railway industry are being consulted, and will be further consulted, in the preparation of a fundamental review of transport policy now being undertaken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and myself.

Mr. Raison

Is it not increasingly clear that the Government are moving towards the abandonment of the transport policies on which they fought the last two elections? Will the Minister say when we can expect a White Paper—a document that is clearly becoming more and more urgent? Will he also say specifically what the Government intend to do about the unauthorised freight deficit?

Dr. Gilbert

As my right hon. Friend has made clear, no decision has yet been taken on whether the results of the transport policy review will be published in White Paper or some other form, but we hope to bring it out to the public probably very early in the New Year. The question of the freight deficit of British Rail is under consideration on the lines of reducing it to zero—in other words, of eliminating it—by 1978.

Mr. Bagier

Will the Minister take note of the fact that Conservative Front Bench spokesmen seem to be implying that they would agree to some form of increased public expenditure on public transport? Will he ensure that, whatever the Treasury's view on this matter, any action taken will not be the thin edge of the wedge towards any further cutback in British Rail services leading to the placing of more and more traffic on our already overcrowded roads?

Dr. Gilbert

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's earlier comments. On the question of the funds available to British Rail, part of the problem is that so much is going out in subsidies on current account to freight and passenger services that less money is available for investment—which is where we should like that money to go.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Will the Minister have a word with the Chairman of British Rail to ensure that transport users' consultative committees and local authorities are consulted about the cuts, of which we read daily in the Press? Will he say whether these consultations will take place before cuts are imposed?

Dr. Gilbert

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has been around long enough to know that he should not believe everything he reads in the Press. There is a great deal of speculation about what is involved. The Chairman of British Rail is well aware of the need to keep in touch with the transport users' consulta- tive committees, and I recently met their central committee.

Mr. MacCormick

Will the Minister assure the people in the Highlands of Scotland that the cuts will not extend to the closing of railways in Oban, the Kyle of Lochalsh, Thurso and Wick?

Dr. Gilbert

I have received no such proposals.

Mr. Ovenden

Will the Minister confirm that British Rail has already sent to many local trade union officials proposals to close railway stations on Sundays? Does he accept that this is the beginning of a policy that will inevitably lead to no services at all for the majority of rural areas outside peak hours? Will he, while we still have a public transport system, abandon the targets he has set?

Dr. Gilbert

The service cuts to which my hon. Friend refers are a matter of management responsibility for the British Rail Board [HON. MEMBERS: 'Oh."] My hon. Friends may not like it, but it is a fact. In view of the continuing deficit, which last year reached a figure on passenger account of £330 million, the choice we have to make is between some retrenchment and some economies in services and fares.

Mr. Moate

Will the Minister explain why the proposed peak hour cuts in the Southern Region will save a meagre £760,000, according to proposals put to the unions, whereas next year British Rail will cost public funds £500 million, including support for pension schemes? Therefore, will he stop tinkering with the problem and consider a major shake-up of the British Rail Board and institute a full inquiry into the whole operation of British Rail?

Dr. Gilbert

I cannot see any need for a full inquiry into the operations of British Rail. The facts of the situation are well appreciated. It is for the board to manage the railway system within the constraints set by the Government.