HC Deb 17 April 1975 vol 890 cc647-50
10. Mr. Goodhart

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

The Provisional IRA maintains its cease-fire. But acts of violence continue, some the result of feuds between extremist groups in both communities and others apparently of a sectarian nature. Thirty-nine people were killed between 1st January and 1st April this year and 391 were injured. Between 1st January and 14th April this year 318 people were charged with terrorist offences, of whom 42 were charged with murder. Large quantities of arms, ammunition and explosives are being recovered.

I have placed in the library of the House a further set of security statistics for the period 1st January to 31st March 1975 in accordance with my previous undertaking to supply such figures regularly.

Mr. Goodhart

The Secretary of State has reminded us yet again that he has released a large number of detainees in the hope that the tenuous cease-fire will be maintained. Can he say whether the position of those ex-detainees will be reviewed if the cease-fire breaks down completely? Is he aware of the widespread concern at the possibility that those who dislike democracy will be anxious to commit outrages shortly before polling for the Convention takes place.

Mr. Rees

I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not give ideas to people who read avidly, I understand, the remarks and views which are expressed here, sometimes without understanding the nature of the way in which we proceed. There is a danger of that.

I have to take detention into account when considering the role of the Army. With regard to the ending of detention, in my view the more that I can act through the courts the better. The figures I have given today reveal that. Of course, if necessary we shall have to return to the use of interim custody orders, since that is their nature, and when there is bombing and killing those orders are necessary. However, I hope to move through the police and the courts. It is the best way although it is not the only way of proceeding.

Mr. Cryer

Does my right hon. Friend agree that internment without trial is a continuing source of friction in Northern Ireland and possibly a continuing barrier to the preservation of peace? When the existing legislation is due for renewal, will he introduce an order for a yet further six months' renewal of the existing legislation or will he press for a debate on the Gardiner Committee's report, since the orders which he has introduced have always been produced with the background knowledge of the Gardiner Report being prepared?

Mr. Rees

It is my expectation that the new legislation will be based on the Gardiner Report. As an abstract discussion, the ending of the detention—it is not without trial, though it is not the best or the normal trial, and that is why the Gardiner Committee recommended the ending of it—

Mr. McNamara

It cannot be called a trial. It is before a commissioner.

Mr. Rees

If I ended detention at a stroke, to coin a phrase, it would lead to civil war in the Province the following morning. That is the judgment I have to make.

Mr. Winterton

With the Convention elections very close at hand, does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the transfer of the Price sisters to Armagh gaol was a good move? Does he consider that gaol secure enough for prisoners of this sort? Will he say why he was not prepared to allow me to visit Armagh gaol during my recent visit to Northern Ireland?

Mr. Rees

With regard to visits to prisons by Members of Parliament in general, I followed the rules for the hon. Gentleman as I would for anyone else. As for the Price sisters, this was an arrangement reached in discussion with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and I stand by it. It would be foolish for me to talk in public about security arrangements at the prison.

Mr. Carson

In light of the coming Convention elections, does the Secretary of State agree that there has been a threat from the Provisional IRA of a boycott of them and of intimidation of people taking part in them? In the light of the incident centres being established in Catholic areas, does the right hon. Gentleman further agree that there have been fewer Army patrols in those areas? Can he guarantee to the people in those areas that they will be provided with additional security when they go to polling stations on election day, in view of these threats?

Mr Rees

The security authorities are aware of the overall problems involved in people going to the poll in all parts of Belfast. I have noted the cry to boycott the Convention elections, and people must make up their own minds with regard to that cry. We shall just have to see at the end of the day what the result shows. Intimidation, not in an electoral sense, is something which I find in non-Catholic areas as well as in Catholic areas.

Mr. McNamara

Will my right hon. Friend cast his mind back to his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer)? Whatever the merits or demerits of internment, does he agree that it is not good enough to say that people are released after a form of trial when an accused person does not see the evidence against him, when he has no opportunity to cross-examine witnesses and when he has no proper opportunity to challenge the decision of the commissioner? This cannot be called a trial. It is better and more honest to call it internment.

Mr. Rees

That is why I hope to make a change in the forthcoming legislation. But I was merely saying that under the present legislation there is a form of trial, and those are the words which my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) used.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Will not our constituents get a false impression if they suppose that the only terrorism going on in Northern Ireland is either internecine or sectarian? Are there not still IRA operations from time to time, especially near the border?

Mr. Rees

There have been two incidents claimed by the IRA. There have been a small number of other incidents where, for understandable reasons, my security advisers have not been able to tell me who was involved. All I say is that the overall campaign of the Provisional IRA in all parts of the Province since the cease-fire started again has been on a pretty muted scale.