HC Deb 17 April 1975 vol 890 cc644-7
8. Mr. McCusker

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he considers that his terms for the reduction of the activities of the security forces and the release of internees are being met; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

The rate at which I release detainees and the activities of the security forces continue to be related to the level of violence prevailing.

Mr. McCusker

While I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman in that most of his recent problems have been of a tit-for-tat sectarian nature, may I say that in the southern part of my constituency the head postmaster was murdered at Silverbridge, a UDR patrol was mined at Whitecross, 20 other shootings and ambushes have taken place and the IRA has closed its so-called incident centre? Is not all this an acknowledgement that at least in that area the IRA has rejected the cease-fire?

Mr. Rees

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says about closing the incident centre, but he is being fair when he isolates the tit-for-tat and internecine killings and bombings that go on in Belfast and also isolates the problem in one part of his constituency. It is one that concerns me a great deal, because we have not had a genuine sustained cessation of violence. I am concerned about the point that the hon. Gentleman properly made concerning the Belfast area. There is a certain amount of inter-organisational violence going on in that part of the Province. I want to stop that as much as I want to stop violence in other parts of the Province.

Mr. McNamara

What evidence is there that the detainees who were released at Christmas have engaged in further violence?

Mr. Rees

The amount of violence on the part of the Provisional IRA is extremely small. However, in terms of actual involvement I have no figures. The short answer concerning figures of involvement is that I have no evidence. The question arises of the possibility of violence. In the same way, with the Loyalist detainees whom I have released there is violence of an internecine nature. However, I have no evidence of any re-involvement there, because mostly the policing is of a nature which is different from the involvement which goes on in the Republican areas.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Is the Secretary of State aware that Lieutenant-General Sir Frank King is by no means alone in his anxiety lest the hard terrorist core be prematurely released? Will he consider whether it might not be better to lay down that a stated number of months of tranquility should elapse before further releases take place?

Mr. Rees

As I indicated recently, there is anxiety about the reinvolvement of anyone who has been detained. When I have detained persons—like other Secretaries of State—it was only on the evidence of involvement or suspicion of involvement in violence and not for political reasons. Of course there is anxiety. However, I am not prepared to deal with the ending of detention in this block way. I must deal with it on an individual basis and on the same individual basis as I deal with each case in the first instance. Nevertheless the speed with which it happens must be related to the amount of violence that occurs and to any evidence I may have—which I cannot reveal—bout the movement of arms, the restocking and the training that goes on. I have to take account of that factor in judging whether a cease-fire is genuine and sustained.

Mr. Dalyell

Is the Secretary of State aware that in the matter of the release of detainees some hon. Members will back him to the hilt against all criticism?

Mr. Rees

I am grateful for that. It is not a matter of criticism. I must make a value judgment in the way I indicated recently. It is a difficult decision to take. My hon. Friend will recall that in July 1974 I said that I was beginning, following the fall of the Executive, small releases in conjunction with the releases carried out by the commissioners. Since 22nd December I have also carried out releases without the commissioners except on a marginal basis, since they are not involved any more. Some 400 people have been released since last July. I wish that those 400 releases had been measured against far more peace in the Province over that period.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

In view of the continuing level of violence and of the undoubted pressure that the Convention elections will impose on security forces, is this the time, as The Times reports, for security forces to be reduced by a further 500 men?

Mr. Rees

There may be a return to violence on the part of the Provisional IRA. The violence in Northern Ireland is largely between the UDA and the UVF and between the Irish Republican Socialist Party and the Official IRA. There are inter-sectarian killings.

On the blunt question, the involvement of the Provisional IRA is small. However, as regards the Provisional IRA I must look at the possibilities and in the context of time. I agree that violence is counter-productive in the context of the Convention. It sends political shivers through people's spines and sends them to tribal camps. On the question of violence, that is something for which I am not responsible. It arises out of the nature of the situation.

Mr. Neave

Reverting to the question of hard core detainees, will the Secretary of State give an approximate estimate of how many remain in detention and should not be released at present? Will he also say whether the public inquiry into the new prison has yet been completed and when the report can be expected?

Mr. Rees

The public planning inquiry into the prison is complete. However, I have not yet received a report from the inspector. The orders relating to the large number of people whom I have released from detention and to the large number of people in respect of whom I have signed detention orders have always been made on the basis of involvement. Every one that I have signed has been on the basis of involvement. Otherwise I would not have the right to sign the interim custody orders.

When it comes to making a judgment of who is hard core, what does the word mean? It may mean those who are on the brigade staff and who are not involved in violence. That may be a matter of judgment. They may be more important than the man who, the records tell me, may have been involved in 10 bombings, six killings and so on. It may be that the staff arrangements are far more important. To the soldiers on the street, however, the man who fires the gun is more important than the brigadier. I cannot make a hard core list and say "Below that there is no problem" Everyone is a problem, and I have to make the judgment.