HC Deb 27 March 1974 vol 871 cc475-8
Mr. Emery

On a point of order, of which I gave you notice last night, Mr. Speaker. This concerns the rights of back benchers.

Yesterday Mr. Deputy Speaker gave this ruling: It is a long-standing convention that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not interrupted during the Budget Statement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 304.] I am certain that everybody accepts that the Budget Statement is an often long, usually arduous, and always gruelling occasion for a Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think that the whole House would wish to pay tribute to the Chancellor for the way in which he performed his task yesterday. I am certain that the Chancellor would want the Statement to come across clearly, and the House would not want the occasion to be a running debate.

May I refer you, Mr. Speaker, to a list of a number of precedents for Chancellors of the Exchequer giving way to interruptions in the past. Sir Stafford Cripps gave way on 18th April 1946—HANSARD, column 69. Mr. Hugh Dalton gave way on 12th April 1947—HANSARD, column 1085. I can bore the House with all the references if it wishes. They include references to Mr. Gaitskell, Mr. Butler, Mr. Macmillan, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Jenkins).

The occasion of their giving way fell into two categories. The first was where the Chancellor gave way to the Opposition Front Bench. However, there are also instances—I refer to HANSARD, column 283, of 6th April 1965—where a Chancellor of the Exchequer gave way to Sir Douglas Glover and where the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East, gave way to Mr. Bellenger and Mr. Arthur Tiley—I refer to HANSARD, columns 1033 and 1041, of 11th April 1965.

There are other examples. Mr. Harold Davies, Sir Gerald Nabarro and even Sir Waldron Smithers—who can hardly be described as a Front Bench spokesman on economics—were all given way to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The last instance I will mention, bearing in mind the ruling given by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas), is that of 17th April 1956 in column 885 where there is an interruption, which could not have been from a sedentary position, by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, West.

I ask you to rule, Mr. Speaker, that, irrespective of the occasion, it must be a matter for the hon. or right hon. Member himself whether he gives way. Secondly, there are several examples, which I have listed, of successive Chancellors of the Exchequer having given way. Thirdy, there is no tradition—and traditions are not always listed but some times appear in footnotes in Erskine May—and there is no rule of the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer be not interrupted during his Budget Statement.

I should be glad, Mr. Speaker, if you would clear up this point because it has been referred to in the Press. If it is not cleared up a precedent might be established which is not in accord with what has happened in the past.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) has made a perfectly legitimate point of order, of which he has given me notice. I congratulate him on his researches and on his erudition. I did discuss the matter with the Deputy Speaker. I fully support him and consider him to have been quite right.

The convention is not an absolute rule. It is not in the Standing Orders but in my view it is a custom. I can claim some personal experience. I made only two Budget speeches myself, owing to circumstances not altogether within my control, but I have listened to very many. The custom is only rarely to interrupt the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Interrup- tions in the Chancellor's Budget Statement, which as I have said are customarily rare, are usually made only by the Leader of the Opposition or the spokesman on finance for the Opposition. The fact that the Deputy Speaker made an interruption a long time ago and that it was he who restrained the hon. Member yesterday seems to prove the advantage of a poacher turning gamekeeper.

There are three simple reasons for the custom. The Budget speech is a test of endurance for the Chancellor and also for the House. It should not, therefore, be unduly prolonged. Secondly, if the right hon. Gentleman gives way to one hon. Member, is he to give way to another? It would be intolerable to have hon. Members rising all over the place and other hon. Members shouting, "Give way, give way". Thirdly, there are three full days' debate on the Budget Statement which gives ample opportunity for asking questions, interrupting Ministers, seeking to make points and asking for information.

Therefore, the custom is not an order of the House. It is not a convention that occupants of the Chair always enforce. I nevertheless maintain that it is a custom of the House, and, until I am otherwise directed, I shall continue to support it as a custom of the House.