Terrorism (Hansard, 24 January 1974)

§ 3. Mr. Mather
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on measures to control terrorist attacks.

§ 21. Mr. Frank Allaun
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on measures to control terrorist attacks.

§ 26. Mr. Goodhart
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement about measures to control political terrorist attacks.

§ Mr. R Carr
The Government attach the highest importance to measures to counter the threat of terrorist attacks. The appropriateness of the measures is kept under constant review.

§ Mr. Mather
I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. May I take this opportunity to congratulate him on his speed of reaction to the recent threat at Heathrow Airport? Would it not be for the public good to make more information available about the exact nature of that threat and, indeed, about other terrorist threats to this country? As the surveillance task is likely to be very great in relation to the area of London Airport, will my right hon. Friend consider augmenting the forces available for surveillance, in particular the Special Constabulary, and will he launch a major recruiting campaign?

§ Mr. Carr
I thank my hon. Friend for his congratulations, which I shall pass on in full measure to those who have done the job. Making such information available on a matter of this kind is difficult, for obvious reasons. I made clear, however, shortly after the action at Heathrow Airport was taken, that it was necessary, our judgment being based upon concrete signs of increased terrorist activity both in this country and in Europe and on some general information we received about the vulnerability of London Airport.
On the surveillance task, I agree that we ought to step up the size of the Special Constabulary. However, a major national recruiting campaign, including the metropolitan area, was started last year and is 1872 having success. Personally, I think that the right way of using the extra Special Constabulary is to keep the professional police, if I might call them that, on this sort of highly specialised duty and to use the Special Constabulary to relieve the police in those moments of strain of some of their more urgent duties.

§ Mr. Allaun
Following the events at Heathrow, will the right hon. Gentleman give two firm undertakings: first that there will be no combined military and police operations in industrial disputes or against peaceful political demonstrations, and second that there will be no discussions between Scotland Yard and the Ministry of Defence regarding the new centre which has been set up to deal with picketing?

§ Mr. Carr
I am not sure what the hon. Member has in mind with the second leg of his supplementary question about the new centre. Let me make it quite clear—because I have said this often in the House over the last 18 months—that the new centre is an intelligence and information room at Scotland Yard to give information to police forces about the plans for any mass picketing and so on which might arise. There is no secret about that and there is nothing sinister about it ; nor is there any military connection with it. It is an information room for the use of the police, and of the police alone.
On the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, of course there is no combined military and police planning in relation to industrial disputes. I think he knows that the present and previous Governments are and have been most loth to make any use of troops in an industrial dispute. That is a tradition followed by Governments of both parties. On the rare occasions that troops have to be used, of course I cannot guarantee, any more than any Government can guarantee, that police may not be operating as well, not necessarily in a situation of keeping order. The police may be on the law and order side and the troops may be driving vehicles or the like. It would be wholly improper for me to give any blanket undertaking that we would never have police and troops operating at the same time.

§ Mr. Goodhart
As terrorists are now increasingly mobile and increasingly able 1873 to operate in foreign countries, should we not welcome any evidence of increased co-operation between our own intelligence services and, for instance, the CIA and the intelligence services of our European allies? As there is also evidence that diplomatic bags have been used occasionally to transfer weapons from one country to another, can my right hon. Friend say whether he will take an increasingly close look at diplomatic luggage?

§ Mr. Carr
As my hon. Friend will appreciate, any questions about the use of diplomatic bags and so on are for my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. I had better not start replying on that subject. As to the first part of the question, we simply have to face the fact that, as crime, illegal immigration and terrorism are all increasingly operated on an international basis, international co-operation becomes more and more important.

§ Mr. John Fraser
Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the co-operation of the general public is essential in combating terrorism? Therefore, would he be a little more forthcoming about the nature of the threat at London Airport and elsewhere? To what extent is the use of troops made necessary at London Airport by the depletion of the Metropolitan Police Force in the last 18 months by over 500 male policemen, and to what extent are the troops being used in a way as a substitute for paying policemen in London an adequate salary to keep up the numbers of an already depleted force?

§ Mr. Carr
In answer to the latter part of mat question, not at all. The need for the use of troops in an operation like this was twofold. Principally it was because we had to include in our contingency plans the possibility that we might have to deal with terrorists using sophisticated weapons. Police simply are not equipped or trained to deal with that sort of threat and, therefore, troops are essential if one anticipates the possibility of that sort of threat. In addition to that, but secondary to that first point, is the question of sheer numbers involved in patrolling a vast area like the perimeter and surroundings of a great 1874 airport like Heathrow. With due respect to the hon. Member, while of course the more police we have the better, the numbers involved are far greater than can be made good merely by making good the deficiency in the Metropolitan Police.

§ Mr. Wiggin
Will my right hon. Friend reject the philosophy propounded by Labour Members that there is something immoral about calling in the troops to assist the police in aid of the civil power? This is a long-established principle in the United Kingdom. Is he aware that there are more than 50,000 Territorial soldiers at the disposal of the Regular Forces? Will he consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to see whether it would be possible to alter the law to allow these troops to be called upon in such circumstances as existed at Heathrow to do some of the more mundane chores?

§ Mr. Carr
It certainly is a long-established principle in our constitution and practice that troops can be called in in aid of the civil power. I hope that nobody disputes that. I hope also that everyone will agree that this is something which should be done only when it is essential and that it should not be undertaken at all lightly or easily. Anyhow, in dealing with this sort of operation, it is probably better, on the troops' side as on the police side, to keep this part of the task for the professionals, using, if I may so call them, the volunteer back-up forces to do the more general duties.

§ Mr. Roy Jenkins
Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that he repudiates what appeared to be the thought behind the question asked by the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin) that it is positively desirable to have troops, whether Territorial or otherwise, mixed up in police operations as often as possible?

§ Mr. Carr
I thought I had made that clear: I certainly do. But I still must maintain, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would, that it is both traditional and proper to call in troops in aid of the civil power. The first thing, however, is to see that the civil power can cope with as much as possible without them.

§ 16. Mr. Tebbit
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied that the powers he has are adequate to deal with political terrorism.

§ Mr. R. Carr
I have no plans at present to seek additional powers but I shall not hesitate to do so if changed circumstances make them necessary.

§ Mr. Tebbit
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer which, with his earlier answers, will give much comfort to most people, if not to all Opposition Members. May I ask him not to hesitate to come to the House if he needs more powers, particularly in view of difficulties which other countries have been having concerning terrorism?

§ Mr. Carr
I thank my hon. Friend for the first part of his question, and I assure him on the latter part.

§ Mr. Barnes
Despite the assurance which he gave earlier, was not the Home Secretary over-reacting in agreeing to the use of troops at Heathrow Airport when there was no evidence, as he accepted on television, that terrorists armed with missiles had got into this country? Ought he not to be very careful about such matters, bearing in mind that there are elements in the police and the military who are attracted by the theories of Brigadier Kitson and who welcome opportunities, particularly at times of political or industrial tension, to wheel out tanks, whatever the risk?

§ 4. Mrs. Renée Short
asked the Secretary that at all. I have not over-reacted. What had been seen to happen in other countries and information reaching us made it a necessary and prudent step to take, and I should have been failing in my responsibility if I had not taken it.