Police (Complaints) (Hansard, 24 January 1974)

§ 2. Mr. Hugh Jenkins
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will arrange for complaints against the police to be investigated by officers of his Department and not by the police.

§ Mr. R. Carr
No, Sir. I do not think that this would be practicable.

§ Mr. Jenkins
Will the right hon. Gentleman think again about this? I know that it is difficult but, as his hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State will be aware, in my constituency there is currently a complaint against an investigating officer who is alleged to have taken an extremely hostile attitude towards constituents who had complained against the local police. The police necessarily have a loyalty to their own force and there might be something to be said from the point of view of the police themselves if complaints against them were investigated not by them but by an official of the Department or by someone else outside the force.

§ Mr. Carr
As the hon. Member says, it is a difficult matter because the skill and expertise required for such investigations exist sufficiently only in the police force. One is dealing with about 15,000 complaints a year. I think that the best way to make progress in this matter would be to introduce an independent element into existing procedures.

§ 6. Mr. Fowler
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to make a statement on his proposal to change the procedure for the handling of complaints against the police.

§ 11. Mr. Bidwell
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is yet in a position to announce the setting up of extra machinery to inquire into allegations of police malpractices.

§ Mr. R. Carr
The working group which I have set up for the purpose of consultation with the police representative bodies has now submitted its report. I am arranging for the report to be published and will make a further statement at the time of publication.

§ Mr. Fowler
Will my right hon. Friend give an estimate of when he will make that statement? Does he agree that the test of any new scheme he might propose is that it should demonstrate the complete impartiality of the investigation of complaints? In that case, will he examine the complaints branch at Scotland Yard, which has worked extremely well, to see whether that kind of scheme can be extended elsewhere?

§ Mr. Carr
I take note of the second part of that question but I should be wrong to comment on matters of substance until the report is published. I had hoped to have the report before the House by the end of the year and I apologise for not having quite made that date. I certainly hope to make it in February.

§ Mr. Bidwell
Is the Home Secretary aware that the news he has just given is most welcome? Unfortunately it is a little late. We hope it will not be too long before he comes forward with a positive arrangement. The Police Federation has agreed in general terms that one is required and that in some of the investigations carried out by the police they have been judge and jury in their own cause. We hope that any new machinery will greatly improve upon the existing situation.

§ Mr. Carr
I am sorry that the report is a little late, but it has been a difficult matter. However, I hope that no one will underestimate the very high standard and reputation of our police and their systems of investigation.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved
Is the Home Secretary aware that the high standing of the police is being detracted from by the system operated particularly in the Metropolitan Police District where charges that 1870 should be laid under the Act dealing with police discipline against particular officers are being dealt with outside the disciplinary code under the policy of interchange? Is he aware that I have been in correspondence with his Department over a number of months in connection with the case of a sergeant in the CID who was transferred under interchange when he should have been dealt with, if he had committed a disciplinary offence, under the discipline Act? Will the right hon. Gentleman take action to deal with this unsatisfactory situation?

§ Mr. Carr
That is very wide of the Question but I shall, of course, take a special interest in the case referred to by the hon. Member.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved
About time.

§ Mr. Alexander W. Lyon
Since we discussed this matter during the proceedings on the Bill sponsored by my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) there have been a number of important developments. Perhaps the most revolutionary of all is the proposal put forward by the Police Federation which would not only introduce a lay element into the adjudication but would require some kind of lay person in each police authority in order to investigate the complaints. This has been frowned upon by the Association of Chief Police Officers. Is it not right, however, that in the interests of the public there should be some support for the Police Federation's proposals, which are far more revolutionary than the attitude adopted by the chief officers?

§ Mr. Carr
We shall have to await the report. That will be the time for questioning and debate.

§ Mr. Whitehead
I thank the Home Secretary for bringing forward the report now in response to the Bill I introduced last year. Will he confirm that at least he has not ruled out the possibility of legislation since the extension of the A10 scheme in the Metropolitan District, though perhaps necessary and desirable, would not necessarily fulfil what is known to be required for all forces?

§ Mr. Carr
Of course I shall take account of what the hon. Member has said, but in the meantime we shall have to await the report.