HC Deb 08 March 1973 vol 852 cc585-9
Q3. Mr. Eadie

asked the Prime Minister if it is his intention at his next talks with both the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress at Downing Street to invite them to negotiate an agreed policy or to receive representations from them.

Q5. Mr. Heifer

asked the Prime Minister if when he meets the CBI and the TUC next at Downing Street he will invite them to negotiate an agreed policy, rather than invite them to make representations to him.

The Prime Minister

There are no arrangements at present for a further joint meeting with the CBI and the TUC. Discussions on the consultative document on the price and pay code have already begun with a wide range of representative bodies including the CBI; we would welcome similar discussions with the TUC. I have made it clear on many occasions that the Government would prefer a voluntary policy to a statutory one, and would be prepared to move to a voluntary basis after stage 2 if agreement on a fair and effective policy proves possible.

Mr. Eadie

If the right hon. Gentleman could manage to arrange a meeting, does he not agree that it would be better to have a direct agreement with the individuals concerned rather than use the medium of television to reach so-called agreements? Would he not also agree that it would help in reaching agreement if he were to tell some of his Ministers that they should be a bit more sober in the attacks they made on trade unions and their members on television? I am referring particularly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was provocative in the extreme.

The Prime Minister

The House recognises that every attempt is being made in discussions, either jointly or singly, with the TUC and the CBI to reach agreement. I have constantly reiterated that I am prepared to go on trying.

Mr. Hefter

Is it not clear that industrial peace cannot be properly established until the Government are prepared to reverse their industrial relations policy? Will not the right hon. Gentleman enter into meaningful discussions with the TUC and the CBI and first discuss with the TUC the Industrial Relations Act? Will he discuss with the TUC the question of a national minimum wage, and revitalising the conciliation services? Will the Government act positively and responsibly on industrial relations and not—as they have done in the last 12 months—behave as if they are concerned only with confrontation and not with collective bargaining?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. No confrontation is desired by the Government—and, as I have told the House before, this has been clearly stated by Mr. Victor Feather. It is his judgment that the Government do not want confrontation, and he has assured me that the TUC does not, either. All the talks I have with the TUC I want to be meaningful. For over nine months, right from the beginning of the Chequers talks, we have offered to consider any proposal that the TUC or the CBI wished to put forward in connection with the Industrial Relations Act.

Mr. Wyn Roberts

With regard to the gas workers' dispute and the exchange of letters between my right hon. Friend and the Leader of the Opposition, is not it clear that whatever the outcome of a court of inquiry it could not be implemented until stage 3? Would not the gas workers therefore be wise to accept the present situation?

The Prime Minister

I hope that they will accept it, now that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Pay Board have been appointed. The deputy chairman will have particular responsibility for dealing with anomalies. The staff has also been appointed. I hope that the gas workers will be prepared to accept the settlement under stage 2 and that they will then put to the Pay Board their views about any anomaly.

Mr. John Mendelson

Apart from any future talks with the General Council of the TUC, and without prejudice to them, in the light of the disturbing industrial situation, does not the Prime Minister think that there is a strong case for his asking the Secretary of State for Employment and instructing the Chief Conciliation Officer in that Department to make immediate conciliation efforts, in the traditional manner, with the gas industry and the hospital ancillary workers? Is not there a case for doing that without prejudicing further talks with the TUC?

The Prime Minister

Whatever is done does not prejudice further talks with the TUC. That option remains open the whole time. The hon. Gentleman may have misunderstood the position. The full conciliation services of the Department of Employment are available and are being used day by day. If Parliament approves the code setting out the pay increases of £1 plus 4 per cent. of the total wage bill, that is the parameter within which settlements must be made and within which conciliation can be used.

Mr. Dykes

Does my right hon. Friend agree that although clear limits are defined in phase 2 the TUC and the CBI have a strong social obligation to continue regular discussions from now on before phase 3 starts?

The Prime Minister

Yes, I have always said that if the CBI and the TUC wish to carry on discussions between themselves it is entirely a matter for them. They did so early last year on the question of conciliation machinery. If they wish jointly to discuss matters with the Government, of course we are willing to do so. On the other hand, we quite understand if they prefer to discuss these matters bilaterally. The last three or four sets of discussions we have had with the TUC have been bilateral, and I quite understand the TUC's desire to arrange it that way.

Mr. Prentice

Did the Prime Minister hear, or has his attention been drawn to, the broadcast made by Mr. Feather last Sunday week, in which he suggested that if the Government were prepared to suspend or radically alter the Industrial Relations Act, and if new discussions could be started on that basis, there was a possibility of the two sides coming together and co-operating for the sake of the country? Does not he realise that the country is crying out for a peaceful settlement of these conflicts, and that the initiative is due from him to help in this settlement?

The Prime Minister

I have taken the initiative on innumerable occasions. I took the initiative with the tripartite talks, and the last three or four sets of talks with the TUC, which as I said have been bilateral, have all been at my invitation. The initiative has always come from me. The initiative has come from me in asking the TUC to put forward proposals on any aspect of the Industrial Relations Act which it wishes to see amended. As soon as the TUC puts forward any requests, proposals or points, we shall give them full consideration.