HC Deb 18 July 1973 vol 860 cc481-4
Mr. Milne

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance and pro- tection for back benchers seeking to raise questions in the House on the subject of the Poulson inquiries and related matters. Briefly, there are two factors I want you to examine. The first is the question of the transference of a Tribunal of Inquiry question from the Prime Minister to the Home Secretary—

Mr. Speaker

Order. 1 can help the hon. Gentleman straight away. That is not a matter for the Chair. What is the next point?

Mr. Milne

I understood, Mr. Speaker, that one of your roles was the protection of back benchers in the execution of your duties. As you have given your ruling, I will seek to raise the matter in other quarters.

The second point is the use of the sub judice ruling by the Table Office. The wording I used—I seek your guidance on this—was that I asked a Question and added the words, "in view of recent happenings in the local government field". I was told by the Table Office

Mr. Speaker

Order. There is here a very important rule which I think has been repeatedly stated by my predecessors, namely, that if an hon. Member is dissatisfied by a decision of the Table he should come to Mr. Speaker privately first before raising it in the House. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has come to me about this matter.

Mr. Milne

With due respect on this point of order, Mr. Speaker, I discussed this matter this morning both with your office and with the Chief Clerk of the Table Office. I am now asking for your ruling in the House.

Mr. Speaker

I do not in the least want to shut the hon. Member up, but it has been established by my predecessors that a private representation to Mr. Speaker is the proper course first—and 1 have not had any. The matter has not been referred to me. If it is referred to me privately, I will consider it, and if I rule against the hon. Gentleman he is perfectly entitled to raise it in the House. It is a matter of saving the time of the House.

Mr. Milne

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. My constituents sent me to the House of Commons and, although I try to observe the responsibilities of the House and to carry out its procedures, my duty is to raise matters in the Chamber and not necessarily with Mr. Speaker privately. I am pressing my point of order—

Mr. Speaker

No. I must follow precedent. My predecessors have repeatedly ruled that a matter of this sort should not be raised in the House until it has been raised first with Mr. Speaker. The purpose of that is to safeguard the time of the House.

Mr. Milne

I want to make just one final point on this point of order. It is not necessary for Speakers in their duty as Speakers of the House to follow the bad precedents set by their predecessors.

Mr. George Cunningham

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for taking up time, but I think that there is an important point involved. I, too, could quote a precedent where, although you would have preferred me to raise a point of this kind with you privately before raising it in the House, and you so told me, nevertheless I was not prevented as a matter of order from raising it in the House. I ask that you reconsider what appears to have been a confirmation of a previous ruling. It is wrong that a practice which may be convenient and desirable if it is accepted by hon. Members should become incumbent upon them and so prevent them from raising matters on the Floor of the House if they prefer to do it in that way.

Mr. Speaker

This is a matter in which I have no personal feelings. I do not mind one way or the other if hon. Members take up the time of the House. It is a matter of complete indifference to me, as long as the hon. Members concerned stay within order. However, this was a rule laid down by my predecessors designed to save the time of the House on a day like this when there is a very important debate to come.

In the case to which the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) referred, he at least discussed the matter with me. I want to help hon. Members, and it may well be that I shall not take the same view as my advisers. If I do not, it will not be necessary for the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) to raise this matter If I do agree with my advisers, the hon. Gentleman can still come to the House afterwards.

Mr. Milne

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have referred to the time of the House that I have occupied. I have been necessarily brief on this matter and had I been given a ruling the time that this matter occupied would have been something under two minutes. Surely that is not too much to ask for in a matter of this importance.

Mr. Speaker

As the hon. Gentleman has persisted, I will consider the point.