HC Deb 18 July 1973 vol 860 cc470-2
10. Mr. MacArthur

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authority tenants, other than those receiving supplementary benefit, are paying no rent because of the provisions of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972.

Mr. Younger

I understand that in the four cities alone there are several thousands of tenants whose total rent is met by rebate. This is in addition to those whose rent is paid by supplementary benefit.

Mr. MacArthur

Do not these impressive facts show the extent to which this wise Act helps families with low incomes—a protection that was totally denied them by the Labour Government?

Mr. Younger

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. Whereas rents have been covered for those on supplementary benefit, both under the old legislation and in equivalent form in the new legislation, the Labour Government made no provision whatever for those who were not on supplementary benefit but could not afford to pay their rents. This Government have done so, and there are thousands of people in Scotland who, as a result, pay a nil rent.

Mr. McElhone

Will the Government come clean on this point? Among the many thousands mentioned by the Minister, how many are widows, how many are receiving disability benefit, how many are wage-stop cases and how many are unemployed and not receiving supplementary benefit? That will expose once and for all the bogus point being made by hon. Gentlemen opposite that many employed people pay no rent.

Mr. Younger

It would greatly help the argument if we could get the facts straight. I should make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that none of these people is on supplementary benefit. They are already completely covered. I should also point out that the numbers of these people are known unofficially from inquiries made in some of the cities. It is difficult to get the figures over the whole of Scotland. The hon. Gentleman will know that about a month ago we were informed that there were 3,300 in Glasgow, about 3,000 in Edinburgh, about 1,600 in Dundee, and 1,460 in Aberdeen. These are all in addition to the people on supplementary benefit. It is clearly time that the Scottish Labour Party faced the fact that this is a more generous scheme than anything it ever dreamt of.

Mr. Lawson

Just how low must a person's income be before he or she can have what is called a nil rent—in other words, pay no rent at all?

Mr. Younger

That depends on the size of his family, and his circumstances. These matters have to be taken together. However, tables are published in the rent rebate scheme pamphlets. It is easy to obtain this information. If the hon. Gentleman has any difficulty, I will give it to him.

Mr. Edward Taylor

Will my hon. Friend ask his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to adjust the rules of the House of Commons to make provision for the hon. Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone) to make an apology to this House and the people of Glasgow for blatantly misleading them?

Mr. Younger

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will note what my hon. Friend has said. I consider that the first step in this difficult matter is to try to get the facts explained satisfactorily to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone). Once he has understood the situation, perhaps he will then pass it on to his constituents.

Mr. Ross

As there are about 1 million council tenants involved in Scotland, would it not be a good idea if we got the figures? Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how many people who were and are still in receipt of rent rebates are now paying higher rents?

Mr. Younger

All those facts could be investigated. It will be difficult and require a lot of work to get figures over all Scotland. But it would certainly be a good thing if we could get the maximum information, because it would demonstrate that there are thousands of people whom the Labour Government did not help but whom we have helped greatly.