HC Deb 06 July 1973 vol 859 cc913-27

12.13 p.m

The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Mills)

I beg to move,

That the Enterprise Ulster (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 19th June, be approved.

Hon. Members will need no reminding that one of the problems of Northern Ireland is high unemployment. Opinions differ on the extent to which the problem has contributed to the present troubles; but there is no doubt that those troubles have not made the solution to the problem any easier to find. In the long term it must lie in increased manufacturing investment—the attraction of new, and the expansion of existing, industry. In the short term, however, the Government have decided that the policy of industrial expansion, which must still be vigorously pursued, should be complemented by other measures. Consequently, last year they announced their intention of setting up an organisation, run by a board drawn from the community at large, with the specific task of creating employment by undertaking or promoting a wide range of amenity schemes. The order before the House today seeks to establish such an organisation as a statutory body and to provide it with the necessary powers to achieve its objectives.

Article 3 of the order formally provides for the establishment of a body corporate to be called Enterprise Ulster—a name already widely known and accepted throughout Northern Ireland as a result of a successful pilot scheme and a considerable amount of preparatory work undertaken in recent months.

Article 4, which sets out the functions of this new body, is the cornerstone of the order. It provides that, for the purpose of creating employment in Northern Ireland, Enterprise Ulster may do anything which it considers to be of environmental, amenity. cultural, community or social value". This general provision is supported—and sometimes qualified—by more detailed provisions in the remainder of the article. Taken as a whole, however, the provisions confer on Enterprise Ulster wide and flexible powers to enable it to achieve its primary objective of creating employment. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that that is the right approach.

In practice, I see the new body fulfilling the rôle of a large employer operating throughout the Province—that is, recuiting workers direct, training them in a variety of skills and offering them the prospect of advancement. Continuity of employment will be the keynote but the organisation should also be a valuable recruiting ground for private industry. Enterprise Ulster will not be just another unemployment relief exercise offering temporary employment for a few months at a time. If a worker leaves Enterprise Ulster I would hope it would not be to return to the dole queue, but rather because his training and experience with Enterprise Ulster had enabled him to advance his career outside it.

What kind of schemes of work will Enterprise Ulster undertake? I expect that in the early part of its life it will concentrate on small amenity schemes such as the construction of play grounds, car parks, picnic areas, riverside walks, linear parks and so on. These are the types of labour-intensive projects in which the pilot scheme has already afforded some experience and which can be mounted quickly. I imagine, however, that as Enterprise Ulster builds up its organisation and technical capacity, much more ambitious schemes will be tackled.

In addition to undertaking schemes direct itself, Enterprise Ulster will be able to help create employment in other ways. Where specialised techniques or facilities are required, it may employ contractors. It may delegate work to others. It may give financial assistance to others who undertake works which accord with the objectives of Enterprise Ulster. In short, Enterprise Ulster will be able to exploit, in the way most effective in the particular circumstances of a case, employment opportunities as they arise and will also be well placed to encourage a wide variety of other bodies to identify suitable schemes which will help in the task of job provision.

There is one further provision in Article 4 which perhaps I should mention. The creation of a direct labour organisation drawing its workforce mainly from the unemployed should afford an opportunity—and this is important—to study the nature of unemployment more comprehensively than has hitherto been possible. Paragraph (2) of the article consequently empowers Enterprise Ulster to conduct. promote or assist research or investigation into unemployment in Northern Ireland.

The remaining articles are concerned on the one hand with giving Enterprise Ulster the necessary supporting powers to carry out its functions effectively and, on the other, with securing its accountability, through the Ministry of Health and Social Services, to Parliament.

I hope I have said enough for the House to appreciate that Enterprise Ulster is, first and foremost, a community enterprise. As well as offering the unemployed the opportunity of steady lobs it should, through the amenity schemes it undertakes, be able to improve the quality of life for everyone in Northern Ireland.

This is a worthy scheme. It is one of those schemes which any Minister would count it a great pleasure to bring before the House. It has worthy and practical aims, and I ask the House to give its support to the order.

12.20 p.m.

Mr. Peter Archer (Rowley Regis and Tipton)

This morning the House appears to be experiencing a pleasing consensus. Over the last few weeks, in a number of debates on Northern Irish matters, the reception on this side of the House for Government proposals has sometimes been less than fulsome, but today I am in the happy position of being able to offer this order an unqualified welcome.

Enterprise Ulster is a direct labour scheme which brings together two problems and offers a mutual solution. First, there is the problem of unhappy unemployment in the Province. It has been falling in recent months, partly for seasonal reasons and possibly for other reasons too, but even in June of this year it was as high as 5.8 per cent. That is not the whole story, of course, because for male unemployment the figures are much higher, and it is not spread evenly throughout the Province. There are some areas in which unemployment is much higher, particularly West of the Bann.

The second problem is that Northern Ireland has its share of environmental difficulties. Of course it boasts some of the most magnificent scenic beauty in the world. I have some happy memories of Mourne landscapes and of journeys through the glens of Antrim, but in many of the towns there is clearly a need to improve the amenities, visual and otherwise, as well as to repair some of the ravages of the unhappy terrorism of the last few months.

Even in the country, I can recollect only a few years ago discussing with a local angler in Kilkeel the question of pollution in the river. Even there, there are environmental problems to which the authorities might well turn their attention. So it is a sensible course to bring the two problems together. The Government are very much to he congratulated upon the order.

If I may say so without introducing a controversial note, the Opposition are delighted at the Government's late conversion to the benefits of direct labour and public intervention in the employment situation. I only hope that the Under-Secretary and the Secretary of State will have a word with their right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment and with some Conservative local authorities.

There are three matters on which I would welcome what I hope is simply the Minister's confirmation. Probably, the answers are self-evident. First, we assume that in the early stages Enterprise Ulster will concentrate on the localities of greatest need. I do not need to enlarge upon that.

Second, the Under-Secretary said that he hoped that Enterprise Ulster would be a recruiting ground for private industry. May we take it that that means that one of the functions of the commission will be to introduce basic training for new skills among those who will obviously benefit in both the short and the long term from that training?

Third, the Minister enlarged upon the possibilities of conducting research into the nature of unemployment. In relation to something a little less ambitious, will each amenity enterprise be not just a once-for-all enterprise in a particular situation but used to stimulate further employment—for example, the building of parks, sporting facilities and so on, which themselves will offer further employment?

Also, what funds are likely to be available for this purpose in each year, particularly the ensuing year? Has any estimate been made of the number of jobs which may become available in the first year in consequence of the order?

These are questions to which we should obviously like answers, but I repeat that we warmly welcome the order. It is an exciting departure, particularly being run as it is with participation from all sections of the community. May it represent a new beginning both for individuals and for the Northern Irish community.

12.25 p.m.

Captain L. P. S. Orr (Down, South)

Like the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer), I would not wish to be less than fulsome, to use his felicitous phrase, in welcoming this measure. When one thinks about Northern Ireland and the various matters that we have discussed this week, it is very agreeable to turn to something concerned with putting people to constructive work for the community as a whole. We warmly welcome this. Of course, it is not something precisely new. We are reconstructing work which is already being done in Ulster.

I understand that this is a development from the Ulster 71 movement and the Young Ulster movement, and that 20 schemes are already in operation, doing very useful things. Perhaps my hon. Friend can tell us what scale of development is likely during the coming year.

As for employment, I understand that the existing schemes employ about 500 people. Like the hon. and learned Member, I should like to know what is likely to be the development over the next year. I understand that the kinds of scheme already operating are the building of play centres, playing fields, various things in rural areas, like rural walks, and footbridges. I presume that that is the kind of task which will be continued.

I have one question about something in the nature of a demarcation matter. The hon. and learned Member spoke about the Mourne area of County Down. Useful schemes are already being done by the Northern Ireland Ministry of Agriculture, which for a long time has been streets ahead of the Ministry of Agriculture in this country. The Northern Ireland Ministry has been a pioneer in this kind of environmental work. Perhaps we can be assured that there will not be overlapping, that there will be co-ordination with the Ministry of Agriculture.

As for the money, I understand that it is proposed to provide about £15 million for the next five years. I hope that money will not be the decisive matter and that the availability of facilities, the actual physical development of these schemes, if it is possible to extend the work, will not be diminished for lack of money.

If one is concerned with private interests of any kind, one is bound to ask about the powers under Articles 6 and 7 which are being made available to the corporation. One is always jealous of powers of any newly-created statutory body to acquire and to enter upon land and things of that sort. I hope that my hon. Friend will assure me that these are not unusual powers, and that they will be exercised responsibly.

Subject to those few remarks, I warmly welcome this order. I congratulate all those involved in schemes already operating on the work they have done, and I wish this new enterprise every success.

12.30 p.m.

Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the introduction of this order. When one looks around Northern Ireland at the moment and sees the damage that has been done one realises the scope there is for such an order. In other words, its advantages are not just those of taking the unemployed off the streets of Northern Ireland. A very valuable task has to be performed in restoring part of our damaged property as well as building up facilities and amenities in Ulster.

Can the Under-Secretary tell us what scale of salaries will apply to members of the Ulster Enterprise and how its membership will be formed? What sectional interests will be represented there? Will members of the new Assembly in Northern Ireland be entitled to serve on the corporation, and what do the Government intend with respect to the control of this body once the Assembly gets under way. Will control be transferred to the new Northern Ireland Assembly or will that control rest here at Westminster? As substantial sums of money are involved, will an annual report be made to this House or to the Assembly in Northern Ireland showing how the money is being expended and what the corporation has done during the preceding year?

Having asked these questions, I am very pleased to welcome the order. It will provide for a valuable function to be performed, not only in offering jobs to the young unemployed—particularly the unskilled—in Northern Ireland but in providing the training which may be useful for all unemployed in Northern Ireland.

12.33 p.m.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said that the Ulster Enterprise corporation will promote research into unemployment in Northern Ireland, and I hope that it will co-operate closely with the Youth Employment Service Board in investigating aspects of unemployment among young people. Individual youth employment officers have already done a lot of useful investigative work of this sort. I am sure that their findings will be available to the corporation, and I hope that the corporation will ask for those findings and make good use of them. The youth employment officers have played a very notable part in Northern Ireland, and I hope to refer to them in the debate on the appropriation order if I get the chance.

Unemployment in Northern Ireland is endemic in certain families and recurs in each generation. One finds families in which the men have been unemployed for two or three generations. It is a very sad state of affairs. Unemployment of this kind involves great suffering and hardship for the individuals concerned and their families.

I am concerned that there is so far no evidence of the work of Enterprise Ulster in my constituency. There is a tremendous volume of work to be done there, particularly in cleaning up the foreshore all along the coast. I believe that my constituency has more coastline than has that of any other hon. Member. The hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) referred to the glens of Antrim, but County Down is one of the most beautiful of our counties. Indeed, leaving aside the areas which have been blighted by terrorism, nearly every part of Northern Ireland is beautiful and can compare in tourist attractions with any other place in the world.

The foreshore of my constituency has become a depository for all city rubbish, when some people returning to the city after the weekend dump their weekend rubbish before they go home and litter our coastline with it. In some places the situation has become quite intolerable. In addition, we have the problem of rubbish thrown overboard from passing ships. Beautiful parts of our coast are ruined by old mattresses littered about, empty tin cans and non-returnable bottles. Something must be done about these non-returnable bottles, otherwise we shall be submerged by them. A tax should be put on them, to be paid by the manufacturers. We also have the problem of indestructible plastics.

Will the corporation be entitled to exercise functions under the Development Services Act 1948 under which the Stormont Government carried out unemployment relief schemes and could pay up to 80 per cent. of the cost of such schemes undertaken by local authorities?

Article 7 (2) deals with the power of entry on to land. It states that such entry shall not be exercisable until …after at least twenty-four hours' notice … has been served on the occupier or owner of the land unless, of course, consent has already been given. The trouble with orders of this kind is that we cannot amend them, but would it not be more sensible in this case that the independent statutory body should be required to give 72 hours' notice? That would give the owner or occupier of the land time to consult his solicitor and, through his legal adviser, to talk with the corporation, and find out why the corporation wished to enter on to the land and learn of any difficulties which might be presented thereby? This is not an unreasonable request, and I hope that my hon. Friend may be able to meet it.

The order gives the corporation power to acquire land. Is this advisable? Would it not be better for the power to rest with the supervising Ministry—in this case the Ministry of Health and Social Security? I hope that I may have an answer to this question. As the corporation may be wound up in, I think, 1978, I wonder why this power is being conferred on it.

Paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 states: The Corporation may borrow, by way of temporary loan or overdraft from a bank or otherwise, any sum which it may temporarily require for the purpose of defraying expenses pending the receipt of revenues receivable by the Corporation …". It then lays down conditions. As the corporation's revenue comes largely from the Ministry of Health, I should not have thought it beyond administrative ingenuity to devise a system which would ensure that the corporation always had sufficient money to meet its commitments, without having to borrow. Should we give borrowing powers to a body of this kind, which in any event may be wound up in 1978?

I welcome the order. I am sorry that today, again, when we are debating measures which may help toward the introduction of harmony into Northern Ireland. no representative of the Opposition in Northern Ireland is present. That is a sad reflection on the way that they approach these matters.

On the question of employment, the corporation may run into difficulties of discriminating against one or other section of the population if it recruits its staff otherwise than through the employment exchange. How does the corporation intend to go about finding workers? Will they be taken deliberately from a particular area or in the ordinary way from those registered as unemployed?

My hon. Friend the Minister has said that Enterprise Ulster will concentrate on small amenity schemes which are labour-intensive. He said that when a worker leaves he will not return to the dole queue—at least, that was my hon. Friend's hope, which we all share—but that his training will advance his career outside Enterprise Ulster.

That raises two matters. First, there is no point in creating, for instance, play centres, for which there is a great need throughout Ireland, and particularly in North Down, or other amenities, unless there is regular maintenance. Will this maintenance be provided annually after such schemes have been completed? It is no use creating a play centre if, after the workers leave and when Enterprise Ulster has withdrawn its help, such a centre degenerates. They can easily be damaged or deteriorate. We see it happening in this part of the United Kingdom. What provision has been made for Enterprise Ulster to provide regular maintenance of play centres, or other amenities which are created, so that they are kept up to a proper standard?

Secondly, will the Enterprise Ulster corporation work closely in co-operation with those engaged in similar work to that which the corporation will undertake? Instead of competing with private enterprise, the corporation should work closely with its representatives. The hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton spoke about the conversion of the Government to direct labour. The Government have been adopting much Labour policy in respect of Northern Ireland, such as the idea of referenda. But the Government have adopted the referenda and other ideas which they would not put forward in England. Here they are advocating direct labour, which they would not advocate in Great Britain.

I welcome any way in which we can reduce the problem of unemployment in Ulster, but I do not want to see difficulties created or a conflict between the Enterprise Ulster corporation and private enterprise. I hope that the corporation will seek the advice of private companies which are already engaged in similar work, from builders to nurserymen and landscapers. I hope that the corporation will not only seek that advice but will have regular meetings with representatives of private companies. I am not sure about who will be on the board of the corporation. If we do not have representatives of builders, landscapers and nurserymen on the board, I ask my hon. Friend to ensure that the corporation has regular meetings with their representatives and takes the benefit of their advice, which would be invaluable.

One example is the Society of Landscapers in Northern Ireland. I spoke to the chairman of the corporation just before it got under way about the problem presented to the Society of Landscapers because Enterprise Ulster would take over some of the work which members of the Society are doing; in other words, public money may be used to rob private enterprise of work which would have been given to it by Government Departments. I hope that that will not happen.

Does Enterprise Ulster have a nursery'? Is it correct that, instead of buying plants from nurserymen in Northern Ireland who provide employment and training, the corporation will be growing its own plants and shrubs? That is an important question.

Mr. Peter Mills

The subject of nurseries is very delicate. The answer is that this is not so. The corporation does not have its own nursery.

Mr. Kilfedder

I am grateful, and surprised, that my hon. Friend was able to answer that question so quickly.

We want to avoid unfair competition. We all want the corporation to succeed. But to succeed it needs the support and good will of private enterprise. Do the Government have any plans beyond 1978, when the corporation may come to an end?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson)

Order. We have not reached that date yet. We must contain our remarks today to the contents of the order before the House.

Mr. Kilfedder

I was closing on those remarks, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I merely want in conclusion to welcome the order and to wish those who operate it every success.

12.49 p.m.

Mr. Peter Mills

I am very grateful for the most generous welcome given to the order by the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer), and to all hon. Members for the way in which they have welcomed it. They have asked a fair number of questions, which I shall try to answer.

First, the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton stressed the needs of the towns. He said that much work needed to be done in the towns and cities. He is absolutely right. The whole idea of the corporation is to do just that—to do a sort of cosmetic operation as well as providing amenities for some of the sorely pressed areas.

The hon. and learned Member is correct, too, when he says that the corporation deals with two problems at once. which is a good thing—unemployment and amenities. Both are covered and both will benefit. The hon. and learned Member and other hon. Members were right when they asked whether this effort will be directed to areas with the greatest need. Certainly it will. I understand that already in the Bogside a start is being made, and West Belfast will he considered fairly shortly; indeed, all the difficult areas will be dealt with. I shall deal later with what my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) said about his area, but I can give the House the assurance that the areas of greatest need will be helped.

The hon. and learned Member spoke of training by the corporation. Training in new skills will be given, but encouragement of the basic skills is also important. Many young fellows and others have never had a job, and it is hoped to train them in the basic as well as the new skills.

I give the assurance that there will be a fall-out from the work of the corporation; in other words, others will benefit. Hon. Members have rightly referred to the continuation of work. It is not much use creating a park or any other amenity if it is not to be kept up. This means a fall-out from the work of the corporation, so that, for instance, park keepers and groundsmen will be needed. It is rather like the ripples from a stone thrown into a pond—there will be an immediate benefit for the unemployed and in the provision of amenities, but the effect will spread and others will benefit.

It is envisaged that for a start the corporation will have £15 million for five years, £3 million a year.

Hon. Members have been concerned about the number of jobs. There has been a pilot scheme and 500 people are now employed; it is hoped to raise that figure to 1,000 by the end of the year. We hope to go on and employ more people, but it must be done gradually. It would be unfortunate if a large labour force were built up without proper training being given.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) welcomed the corporation and rightly said that good schemes were already in operation. We wish to continue them and gradually build up this work as the areas and problems are identified. My hon. and gallant Friend mentioned demarcation. A number of principles have been agreed between Enterprise Ulster and other Ministries about who does what. I think that this is the best way to deal with that matter, for we do not want any overlapping.

As my hon. and gallant Friend said, the Ministry of Agriculture, with which I have had the great privilege of working, has done a tremendous job. I have seen this for myself in the work done in the forests and alongside the rivers, in fish farms and in picnic areas. The Ministry has done remarkable work, and that was one of the major discoveries that I made when I first started work in Northern Ireland. Many people have been employed in this work, and I understand that the Ministry of Agriculture has put 8,000 people on this enterprise. I cannot praise it too highly. I have enjoyed fishing in the rivers and picnicking.

It is not for me to criticise other parts of Great Britain, but I should have thought that anybody who wanted to see what could be done about improving amenities would want to see what was being done in Northern Ireland. There should not be any overlapping, for Enterprise Ulster will be concerned mostly with the urban areas.

I understand that the powers in paragraphs 6 and 7 are not unusual for corporations of this sort and they will be operated responsibly and carefully. Paragraph 7(6) provides for compensation cases to be referred to the Lands Tribunal.

I was glad of the welcome for the order voiced by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster). I am not able to help him at present about the scale of the salaries. Once it has been set up, the Assembly will take control and there will be an annual report from the corporation which will be a subject for debate, when criticisms and so on may be made.

My hon. Friend the Member for Down, North mentioned research. This will be an important part of the work. I am certain that there will be co-operation among all the Departments and particularly by the Youth Employment Service Board. We want to gather as much information as we can from all research so that we can solve the problem.

Great strides are being made in Northern Ireland in dealing with the unemployment problem, but more needs to be done. We have to identify the difficult cases where perhaps generation after generation has not had a job for one reason or another, and perhaps this order will make it possible for the younger members of a family to be trained and started in a job for the first time.

My hon. Friend was quite right in what he said about the beauty of Northern Ireland, but I would not go so far as to say that it is more beautiful than my own part of the world, Devonshire.

My hon. Friend spoke of co-operation with URIC. I have already mentioned demarcation, but we shall make sure that there is no overlapping.

Paragraph 7 has been mentioned. I understand that it is standard procedure to have 24 hours' notice of intended entry. It is not unusual to have borrowing powers of this sort for corporations of this kind. They need short-term borrowing powers for overdrafts and so on.

My hon. Friend mentioned finding workers. I assure him that there will be no discrimination. Men who are registered unemployed at the employment exchanges will be needed. It is important to get those who have never worked or have not worked for a long time. We want to give them basic training so that they may become skilled.

My hon. Friend the Member for Down, North queried the fact that no work was being done in his constituency. At Ballymacormick Point, Bangor, a coastal wharf is under construction, and we should not forget the Ulster Folk Museum. One of my usual walks is to go through a part of my hon. Friend's constituency, and I agree with him that the amount of filth, rubbish and bottles in the lough is disgraceful. That is something to which the corporation can turn its attention.

However, my hon. Friend's constituency is in a low unemployment area, and we want to deal with the bad areas where amenities are sadly lacking, as in Belfast, for instance. But I am certain that my hon. Friend will be making strong representations to the corporation and that it will take his views carefully into account.

This is a worthwhile order. Enterprise Ulster has a great future, and I hope that people will seize the opportunity. I wish it well, as I know that the House does. This is a community enterprise. It will improve the quality of life in Northern Ireland and help to solve the unemployment problem. For those reasons, I commend the order to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Enterprise Ulster (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 19th June, be approved.