NORTHERN IRELAND (APPROPRIATION)

HC Deb 06 July 1973 vol 859 cc927-48

1.0 p.m

The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Mills)

I beg to move,

That the Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 12th June be approved.

We now come to something a little different. This is the second Appropriation Order for Northern Ireland in 1973. Hon. Members will recall that in March last the House approved the first appropriation order, which voted sums on account totalling £203,630,000 required for the year ending 31st March 1974. Today's order deals with the balance of the Estimates for 1973–74, that is, the total as shown in the Estimates volume that hon. Members have had an opportunity to consider, less the amount previously voted on account. The order also provides for the appropriation of three amounts that rose as excess Votes in the financial year 1971–72. I shall refer to these again shortly.

As hon. Members can see from the Estimates volume, the total of the Northern Ireland Estimates for the current year is just over £561 million and as my hon. Friend the Minister of State mentioned in our consideration of the previous order, this is £95 million more than the total Estimates figure for 1972–73. I should stress that this figure is reached before consideration has been given to any Supplementary Estimates. As the figures upon which these Estimates are based were prepared at the end of 1972, in the normal course of events we would expect to have Supplementary Estimates both in the autumn and in the spring of 1974.

At the present time, however, it is difficult to be as precise as we would normally wish about this as the Northern Ireland Estimates will be affected to a considerable extent by the provisions of the Northern Ireland Constitution Bill. Under the Bill, certain items of expenditure will certainly be transferred to the Vote of the Northern Ireland Office at Westminster. Northern Ireland's own requirements will then be somewhat reduced though Supplementary Estimates will still probably be needed.

I should also like to take this opportunity of drawing the attention of hon. Members to the financial statement for Northern Ireland for 1973–74, which has recently been published, and from which Members will see the Estimates for supply expenditure have been included at the levels mentioned in this order. Due to the uncertainties caused by the Constitution Bill it is difficult to be precise about both income figures and the amount of grant in aid assistance required from Westminster during 1973–74. but hon. Members will no doubt notice that the estimates for the grant in aid under the provisions of the 1972 Act for the current year has now reached a figure of £137 million.

My hon. Friend mentioned, when presenting the appropriation order earlier in the year, that one of the main reasons for the increase in expenditure for 1973–74 as opposed to 1972–73 was the reorganisation of local government. bringing with it the transfer of several services from local to central government at 1st October 1973.

I reiterate that approximately £60 million of the increase is due entirely to reorganisation and represents purely a transfer of expenditure from one part of the public service to another. All this is explained in some detail in the memorandum at the front of the Estimates volume.

Also from 1st October 1973 rate income will be payable directly to the Ministry of Finance instead of to existing local authorities and this will increase the Government's income by something like £13.5 million for 1973–74. The rate income will be paid directly to the Exchequer and is not therefore shown as an item in this Estimates and appropriation order.

It would not be fair to hon. Members to take up too much time introducing this order and I shall therefore not comment on specific points in the order on the Estimates at the moment but I will do my best to answer, either today or if need be by letter, any points which may be put to me. Before closing, however, I should mention the question of the excess Votes for 1971–72 which are included for appropriation in this order. These excess Votes have been considered and accepted as reasonable by the Public Accounts Committee here at Westminster. Details of the Votes are set out in the PAC Paper 188 of 8th March 1973.

There are many technical and difficult points in the order. I can assure the House that we want to get these matters right. If necessary I will write to hon. Members to see that the whole thing is clarified. I ask the House to accept the order.

1.6 p.m.

Mr. Peter Archer (Rowley Regis and Tipton)

The House will be grateful to the Under-Secretary for having combined brevity with clarity in introducing the order. We last debated an appropriation order on 28th March. Nothing has happened since which gives me any reason to retract what I said then. The ancient principle that enables hon. Members adequately to speak for their constituents is that of redress of grievances before supply.

That is effected in this House in relation to England, Scotland and Wales by the Consolidated Fund Bill and the Appropriation Bill. We are able to have long debates in which hon. Members raise the grievances of constituents. A debate on an order lasting for an hour and a half is not normally an adequate substitute for that opportunity. I said in the last debate that it was unfortunate that such debates often took place late at night or in the small hours of the morning, when the House sometimes wears a rather bare look. No doubt the Government listened, because they have rectified it. We are not debating this order late at night, but on a Friday.

The hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) said that certain of his Northern Irish colleagues were absent. Friday is not a day best calculated to secure the attendance of hon. Members who have constituency engagements. Last Friday an hon. Member commented that a compromise between having a debate and not having a debate is to have one on a Friday. Perhaps the question may not arise frequently in future.

We are grateful for the guidance of the hon. Gentleman as to the probable effects of the Constitution Bill. Does it mean that this is probably the last occasion when the House will control expenditure by this procedure and that in future Northern Ireland will be considered during the Consolidated Fund debates? If that is so it may make our deliberations this morning a little easier.

There is only one item about which I want to ask a question. This relates to Class III, item 2, which shows that a sum of £15½ million is granted for police services and £7,600 is granted as an appropriation in aid. Not for the first time in debates on appropriation measures there may be some reason for exploring exactly what items are contained within that figure.

The police in Northern Ireland have a thankless job, for reasons which we in this House know only too well. One thankless job all too often leads to others. An article in a recent issue of New Society shows a remarkable increase in crime rates in Northern Ireland between 1968 and 1971. During that period in Great Britain, crime generally increased by just over one-quarter. In the same period in Northern Ireland crime almost doubled.

It seems that this does not represent merely an increase in terrorist crimes, in scheduled offences under the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill. It is true of theft, burglary and shoplifting. In his annual report for 1970, the chief constable used these words: I am afraid that this is proof, if proof were needed, that riot and civil commotion, in which law enforcement is challenged, inevitably lead to a general lowering of moral standards as reflected particularly in crimes of dishonesty such as theft. That is a proposition open to debate, but I shall not trespass on the time or the patience of the House. The authors of the article point out that there may be reasons for the increase in crime more directly connected with terrorism. The chief example given is the diversion of police resources to deal with acts of terrorism. On any showing it seems that there is need for an increase in the numbers of police, and possibly at the same time a need for an increase in those measures of public relations which are likely to increase understanding of the difficulties of the police among the population generally.

That is underlined when one considers that the crime detection rate has fallen from 58.2 per cent. in 1968 to 21 per cent. in 1972. In the circumstances of Northern Ireland, it is inevitable that the police are sometimes subjected to criticism of a political nature. There cannot be any area in the world where it is more true to say "You just cannot please everybody."

Some of us have received recently a publication entitled The Black Paper, published by the Central Citizens' Defence Committee of Belfast. It might be argued that the committee is not wholly objective or impartial. But it is able to quote passages from reports of such an authoritative nature as those of Lord Cameron and Sir Leslie Scarman—reports which, in some measure, were critical of the police.

History has moved on since those reports, but it is clear that the police force does not command the understanding and confidence of all sections of the population—as witness the appearance of The Black Paper itself This may not be the fault of the police. I understand that it is virtually impossible for any police force so to behave that there is never criticism from any quarter in the kind of conditions prevailing in Northern Ireland. But The Black Paper quotes a comment—a very perceptive comment—from Lord Hunt, who was asked to advise on this matter by the Ministry of Home Affairs and reported in 1969. He said: Policing in a free society depends on a wide measure of public approval and consent. This has never been obtained in the long run by military or para-military means. We believe that any police force, military in appearance and equipment, is less acceptable to minority and moderate opinion than if it is by clearly civilian in character…". I seek today to stress that the Government must find ways of making police forces more widely acceptable to greater sections of opinion in Northern Ireland. If they do not, the police force will not be able effectively to perform its rôle. I am not seeking to apportion blame. It would be improper for me to enter into any controversy of that kind.

The Opposition recognise the courage of the police in dealing with difficult and dangerous situations. I suggest that there are two matters which are self-evident. First, it is important that the police force, like any other public service, should constantly scrutinise itself to see whether there are grounds for legitimate criticism and, if so. rectify what is at fault, or, alternatively, offer an explanation. Secondly, the police must require the assistance of the political authorities to provide the necessary resources for them effectively to carry out their work and to offer those explanations and expositions which are necessary to good public relations. I hope that within this item we shall make provision for both those measures. I invite the Minister to tell us the Government's reflections on these matters.

1.16 p.m.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

I agree with the view of the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) about the great courage and splendid work done by the police in Northern Ireland. I fervently believe that from 1968 onwards the IRA deliberately set out to defame the police, and succeeded in that propaganda battle. But to me the police are a noble body of men and women who, in difficult circumstances, are trying to serve the community. I should like to see an increase in the number of police, and we should constantly take the opportunity to praise them.

Mr. Peter Archer

There may well be not much between the hon. Gentleman and myself. Is he suggesting that the Central Citizens' Defence Committee of Belfast is an IRA-oriented body?

Mr. Kilfedder

I look upon the committee as an organisation that, in the past, has been, and even at this time is being, used by the Republican movement—the IRA—to push its propaganda battle, and in this way it is contributing to disorder in the community. I would not place too much reliance on anything coming from that body because I have seen statements which it has made in the past. I shall not bore the House with those statements. In any case I would have to repeat them from memory and I might quote them incorrectly. But statements by the committee in the past have attacked the British Army as well as the police and have tried to discredit all the security farces and the judiciary as well.

Item 6 of Class II provides £30,000 for the secret services. That seems a small amount in the Northern Ireland situation. Information from the public is vital to the success of the campaign against the terrorists, and the more information that can be obtained through the civilian secret services the better. We should not be slow in spending money on the secret services. The amount proposed is too small compared with the threat posed by the terrorists to the life of the Province.

I am glad that the police are having more success in bringing these evil men before the courts, and I commend the work they have been doing. I hope that they will get more support from people in the Republican areas than they have received in the past. In Republican areas they have little support. In this respect the confidential telephone plays an important part. I regret that these cruel men can use the telephone to direct members of the security forces to a particular house at which they have arranged a booby trap. Good police work depends on the co-operation of the public generally, and we should constantly remind the public in Northern Ireland of this.

Class IV Item No. 2 refers to industrial training, in which Ulster has a first-class record. We have made enormous advances since the Industrial Training Act came into operation. Is not the time opportune to examine the relationship between the gross expenditure of the training board and the actual cost of training? There may be a cheaper way to achieve the same result. Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the present system is the right answer? May not the levy arrangements work as a disincentive to the middle-sized firms in the Province, some of which do little training on their own account but rely on staff trained by bigger firms?

Will the Government re-open with the Northern Ireland trade unions negotiations on the length of apprenticeships? Apprenticeships of four to five years are too long nowadays bearing in mind the one-year intensive training course which is available at Government training centres. Would it not be possible to reduce the on-job training to one or two years, especially in the building trade, in which there will be a great shortage of workers when we start to repair all the damage caused by the terrorists? The shortage of building workers could hold us back from restructuring the economy once the IRA has been defeated, as one day it will be defeated.

In our debate on the Enterprise Ulster (Northern Ireland) Order I referred to the Youth Employment Service Board. I take particular pride in praising the board. The youth employment officers have given sterling service during a difficut time. Although the offices have been bombed, the officers have not been deterred from advising young people on job opportunities and careers. The Youth Employment Service ignores the sectarian division of the school system. I have repeatedly said that I should like to see the religious division in education brought to an end as quickly as possible. Whatever their religion, the Youth Employment service officers are welcomed everywhere. The Youth Employment Service in Northern Ireland could well serve as a model for the Youth Employment Service in England. The service is efficient and does a splendid job. In Ulster it is run by an independent statutory body responsible to the Ministry of Education. It does not pay unemployment benefit and is left free to concentrate on its main activity of providing jobs advice for school leavers and other young people.

I refer my hon. Friend to Class VIII Item No. 2. I hope that he will personally look into a serious situation which has arisen as a direct result of the water shortage. About 150 houses in the de Wind Estate at Comber in my constituency have lavatories which are served directly from the water mains—against all planning laws. When the water is cut off at 8 o'clock every night the people living in these houses, including many young children, cannot flush their lavatories. When I inquired into this I was told that the people could fill their baths with water, yet the point of cutting off the water at 8 o'clock is to stop the waste of water. Baths filled with water present a hazard to young children. Is it not possible for the people in the de Wind Estate to have their water cut off at a later hour? Perhaps my hon. Friend will let me know, not necessarily now, what he will do about this?

Class I Item No. 5 of the appropriation order refers to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, and Class IX Item No. 2 refers to the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints. I do not know why the allocation is separated, as the same person occupies both positions and the same officers are employed on both duties. There may be a simple answer to this, and I hope that my hon. Friend will give it.

On Class IX Item No. 1, will my hon. Friend say when the House will be given a full report of the grants paid under the Social Needs (Grants) Act (Northern Ireland) 1970? Available resources, for political reasons, so often are directed to troubled areas, whereas neighbourhoods which have remained quiet in the face of Republican provocation are ignored. Areas like North Down which have remained quiet appear to get no benefit from the legislation. Great efforts have been made by local people to get the various authorities interested in community schemes in North Down.

In the village of Moneyreagh local people have for a long time been trying to get a children's playground and a community hall, for which there is a great need. The RUC Community Relations Branch has shown sympathy and concern, but, unfortunately, that has not been reciprocated by other Government interests involved. The local representative of the Community Relations Commission has also been helpful, but still no progress has been made. The local people have come up against a blank wall of red tape which I intend to break through, no matter how long it takes, and I hope that my hon. Friend will assist me in getting help for these people. Had this been an area in which young people were involved in baiting the police and soldiers, money would have been poured in, but it seems that because North Down is relatively quiet it can be ignored.

I am personally interested in this and other worthy projects in North Down. There should be no need constantly to be engaged in a battle with Government Departments for the provision of necessary amenities for young and old. I was dismayed to hear yesterday that the proposed youth wing of the Glastry intermediate school has been turned down. I referred to this matter on the last occasion when we debated the appropriation and I got nowhere. I do not accept the Government's refusal to help. The Glastry intermediate school, which has a splendid reputation and serves a wide part of the Ards peninsula, has been turned down on the ground that priority is given only to those schemes situated in growth or key centres. North Down is a growth area, the Ministry of Development regarded it as such and it has stated this often enough. The people who live there know that it has been designated as a growth area. But the Minister or those advising him must be ignorant of the fact that it is a growth area, and this seems to display an appalling ignorance of the situation.

I ask the Minister to go to the Ards peninsula and have a look around. He will then see what needs to be done in that area. We are expecting a further and larger influx of population from Belfast. I cannot see why the youth wing has been rejected. The reason must be that North Down gives no real trouble to the Government at present and, therefore, can be ignored. I hope that we shall not repeat the mistakes of the past by making no provision for recreational facilities for young and old alike. Acres of new houses have been built in my constituency but there is a dearth of open spaces with proper facilities for children. and quiet restful places for the old. We need to plan more parks and amenity areas close to the areas of population. Furthermore, the area could also be made more of a tourist attraction. The people of Belfast need to get out of the smoke and dirt of the city into the countryside, and we must ensure that there are proper amenities for them.

I demand that the Government should immediately review the situation in North Down to see that it gets a fair deal. It is not getting a fair deal at the moment. It is a rapidly developing area, and I shall not be put off by the usual bureaucratic excuses for inactivity in a relatively quiet part of the country which has not taken part in acts of civil disobedience such as the rent and rate strike.

I wish now to refer to Class VIII of the Draft Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order. A great deal has been achieved with regard to housing in Northern Ireland, but much still remains to be done. There are more than 3,000 substandard houses in North Down which are beyond repair. Many people living in North Down desperately need houses but cannot obtain them. I have been told that the people in Belfast in riot areas are on a priority and emergency list and must be housed first in North Down, and in many cases local people have to go to the wall. I could take the Minister to houses in North Down which he would regard as a disgrace. In a number of streets in Newtownards there are dark, damp, mouldering houses. After some years they will be demolished and replaced by other houses, but families are living in them at the present time. People should not have to live in such dreadful conditions. Those conditions can be found in other towns and villages in North Down.

In our affluent society of 1973, in this highly technological age, there is no excuse for people being allowed to live in such deplorable conditions. North Down appears to be regarded by some people, including some civil servants at Stormont, as a prosperous area, and, therefore, it is felt that it can be ignored. But it cannot, and must not, be ignored, and I do not intend that it should be ignored.

Elderly people in North Down are in an even worse plight than young married couples, who have my deepest sympathy when they try to make homes out of a few rooms. At least the young have energy, drive and hope to do something about their living conditions, but the old are often the silent victims of the bureaucratic system. Elderly people living on pension and facing ever-rising prices do not have the money to furnish their homes with even ordinary creature comforts.

The high hopes that I once had for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive have not been fully realised. I appreciate that the executive has taken over a tremendous number of houses from councils throughout Northern Ireland, but I believe that it is now in a complete shambles and cannot cope with the amount of work which it has taken on. This must be the explanation for its insensitive approach to people's basic needs. There are individual exceptions among the staff of the housing executive, because I have had the pleasure of dealing with them, but decisions made at the top show an indifference towards people.

Who, for example, decided that the Northern Ireland Housing Executive office, once situated in the centre of Bangor, should be moved to the outskirts of the borough? Some people have to take two buses to get there and no bus actually passes the door of the office. Therefore, if people want to raise some query with the executive or want to approach officials for advice, they have the greatest difficulty in getting to the office by ordinary transport. This is indicative of a callous indifference to ordinary people.

Surely in this day and age we should not make it more difficult for people who wish to complain or seek advice about matters which are of deep concern to them. This is a time when we should be paying more concern to people's welfare: we should be going out of our way to help them. The example I have quoted of the inaccessibility of the housing executive is a disgrace, and it is repeated in other parts of North Down in other instances—and, indeed, it may be repeated throughout Northern Ireland. The executive should be situated in the town centre so that it may be accessible to all.

Absence of democratic control over the Northern Ireland Housing Executive has meant that bureaucratic efficiency, administrative neatness and executive convenience have come to occupy the primary position of concern in the minds of those who should be serving the great cause of providing a house for every family which requires one.

I turn to Class VIII, Item 6. I should like to deal with the question of planning, for I believe that there is a need for a new look at the complex planning laws in Northern Ireland. So often the planners seem to become bogged down in detail, while whole areas of the country are desecrated by so-called development. How absurd it is that a planning appeal can be won and yet the applicant can still be turned down by the intervention of the local authority. This actually happend to one of my constituents. All he wanted to do was to build a lavatory and bathroom to his house. After he took the matter on appeal to the Ministry for Development, the local council intervened and rejected his proposal because it infringed a local byelaw. Cases of that kind indicate the great need for my hon. Friend and his colleagues to look at Northern Ireland's planning laws.

More attention should be paid to the restoration and rehabilitation of existing cottages and houses which are attractive in appearance. Many beautiful villages in North Down are likely to be ruined by careless and thoughtless development. My hon. Friend knows the town of Hillsborough, where the Governor of Northern Ireland resided. I shall not go off on a tangent to express my feelings of utter regret that the Government decided that we should no longer have a Governor in Northern Ireland. But Hillsborough is a famous town. The area will not be enhanced by the decision of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive to build about 200 houses in an area of natural beauty just a few miles outside the town when the local housing need could be met by better planning and the renovation of existing houses in this historic town, thus helping to retain its character.

Another instance concerns Donaghadee, a delightful seaside resort where the planners intend to remove a row of well-maintained Victorian cottages on the seashore that provide a pleasing vista not only for those who live in the area but for visiting tourists. Worst still, the planners propose to run a main road right along what is at the moment the esplanade, bringing cars and car parks right to the very part where peace and beauty should be retained.

The planners will destroy the attractive areas of Northern Ireland unless something is done. The people of Donaghadee are angry. There are cases in Bangor as well. Something should be done by the Ministry for Development. The planning laws should be looked at again with a view to seeing that the natural beauty of Northern Ireland is preserved. If the planners paid less attention to preconceived notions of what the community needs and more attention to what makes a particular area live and what gives it character, they would perform a great and lasting service to the community.

All too often the planners are regarded by the people as the officials who direct their lives and override their wishes. Provision ought to be made by the Government through the Ministry for Development to ensure that all persons directly affected by planning decisions had not only prior notice about what planners intend to do, or what they were thinking of doing, but have their legal expenses paid so that they might pursue reasonable planning appeals. It is wrong that a citizen should have to suffer the sanction of bearing the costs of legal advisers and of counsel at a hearing of this kind when he is performing a public duty in making an objection to a plan.

I want finally to refer briefly to Class III subhead 4, in respect of the expenses of prisons and borstal institutions and certain grants in aid. I want briefly to refer to the question of Kiltonga House. I fought against the establishment of Kiltonga House as a remand centre in Newtownards. I lost. But I am assured that it will not be used as a remand centre after a period of four years. However, it is a pity that people living in the area were not properly consulted before the Ministy decided that Kiltonga House was the best place for a young offenders centre.

I ask my hon. Friend to consider as a matter of urgency the provision of a new prison in Northern Ireland. Crumlin Road and Armagh are out of date. We need a new prison. It is no use allowing civil servants to ponder and to think deeply about the provision of a new prison in Northern Ireland. We must have one There is no disputing that. As a matter of urgency the Government should say, "Yes. We shall have a new prison and we shall announce the places where we are thinking of establishing it so that all the people in those areas can make representations to the Minister if they wish to object against the establishment of a prison in their area." We need a new prison urgently. I hope that my hon. Friend will take my words to heart and see that action is taken on that matter.

1.45 p.m.

Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

I shall not detain the House for very long. I am aware that other hon. Members have been waiting for a long time to take part in the next debate.

I must draw attention to the fact that the order which makes provision for the expenditure of some £358 million, bringing the total for this year up to £561 million, has been put on today's Order Paper at the end of a long week spent on Northern Ireland affairs. We have debated the Northern Ireland Constitution Bill at great length, finishing its Report and final stages. The Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill went on until a very late hour last night. Today we are considering one Bill, which has gone through all its stages, and two important orders. I feel that the Government's business managers might have considered it better to put down this important measure for discussion at some other time. The expenditure of £358 million is no small matter.

What is more, as the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) said, this is an occasion when all types of grievance may be raised affecting the rest of the United Kingdom. It is the one occasion when hon. Members have a duty to do so. As this House is still in complete control If the affairs of Northern Ireland, this is an occasion when we should have been able to deal with all the matters covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) in what I thought was a magnificent speech.

Another matter on which I ought to comment is that there are only half a dozen hon. Members present to take part in this debate, and I think it is fair to say that some of them are waiting for the next debate.

Many of the matters raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North touch on points which I had intended to canvass in respect of my own constituency. I have in mind especially my hon. Friend's remarks about housing. In Belfast on the Newtownards Road there has been a great deal of slum clearance, but there has been very little progress in providing adequate houses for those who have been dispossessed and in clearing up the entire area in what is an important part of the centre of Belfast.

I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to deal with the plight of the elderly. I receive many complaints from elderly people who cannot find adequate alternative accommodation. Some of them are occupying houses in which they have lived all their lives. Elderly widows and widowers are in houses with three and four bedrooms when small flats would suit their needs. However, because they are unable to find flats, whole houses which might be provided to married couples with young families are rendered almost sterile.

Another matter of great concern to me is the Black Paper which was referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton. It was issued by the Citizens Central Defence Committee, a body which at one time spoke for the Republican movement in Northern Ireland. I believe that some of its officers were members of the Provisional IRA. Any statement made in that document must be treated with great care. I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman did not intend to do so himself, but this propaganda medium has been used skilfully in the past to undermine our police force and in that way undermine established authority in Northern Ireland.

No criticism of the Royal Ulster Constabulary can be sustained. The force has performed a most difficult rôle in the face of constant attack over the pest three years. I can speak with close personal knowledge of my own area, and I know that the force deserves the highest praise. It is commonly accepted now that Lord Hunt's recommendations were misguided. Who in present circumstances, and with the benefit of hindsight and knowing of the casualty list in the security forces amounting to 250 deliberately killed by the IRA, would have dreamed of disarming the police? Unfortunately, the disarming of the police has resulted in many assassinations and attempted assassinations of members of the police force. The police perform their rôle diligently and with complete impartiality. The attempt in the Black Paper to undermine them is to be deplored.

I ask my hon. Friend to enlarge on Class VII Item 2, expenses of the Ministry of Commerce. There is a great deal of industry in my constituency of East Belfast. Large sums are involved in the Vote. Also, large sums are being made available for housing and education. How much of this is to be devoted to attracting new industry because of the high unemployment in Northern Ireland?

The question of training has been mentioned. How much is devoted to assisting existing industries? A great deal of fuss is sometimes made about the need to attract new industries from outside, but for the expenditure of a smaller sum many existing industries could greatly increase their prosperity and, consequently, provide more employment, with all the spin-off resulting for other industries in Ulster. I do not wish to criticise the work of the Finance Corporation, which is making money available to attract new industry and devoting much time and effort to it.

1.53 p.m.

Mr. Peter Mills

We have had an interesting debate. As the years pass these appropriation orders become political colanders in which every local problem can be caught, exposed and dealt with, but——

Mr. Kilfedder

That is the point of them.

Mr. Mills

I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to finish. I see these orders as political colanders, but I regard this as of great importance. Anybody who doubts the importance of the House need only reflect that in these debates small problems can be highlighted. My hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) mentioned lavatories. This is democracy in action. It will be a sad day when we cannot discuss these matters.

I take the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) about the timing of debating these matters. I would much rather have these debates during the day than late at night, so this is an improvement.

As regards the future, the hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that under the order it is a matter of urgency. The last order took us up to July. This order will take us a stage further. Later it will be for the new Assembly to deal with these matters, where a full debate can take place, more so probably than now, and where various local points and difficulties can be raised. Much will depend on the date of the devolution orders under the Constitution Bill and until then we must carry on.

On Class III(2), it is important to understand the extreme difficulty under which the police force works. I wish to pay a sincere tribute to the police, as would anyone who has observed them on duty or has been with them, as Ulster Ministers are constantly, surrounded by four security men and with the local police force operating. One then realises how difficult it is for the police and one appreciates the sincerity of their fears and those of their wives. The whole setup is so difficult for them, and they perform their rôle magnificently. Wherever I go I am confident that I am secure and that the police are playing a real part.

Of course the police would like to turn from security work back to the prevention and detection of crime, which is their primary function. However, it must be accepted that in the emergency their priority must be to deal with the terrorists.

We should like to see an increase in the numbers of the police. A great recruiting drive is under way. Recruitment should be broadly based, with recruits being drawn from the minority community as well. Only then will the force be really accepted. We are trying to achieve this. As new recruits come forward, more money will be provided.

It was very unfortunate that the Black Paper should have been brought out at this time—not by the hon. and learned Gentleman, but by those who published it. It has been refuted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. The police force is as sensitive as anybody to criticisms, and complaints are investigated carefully. It is no good looking back into the past. In the difficult situation in Northern Ireland the police need to be strengthened and encouraged. They should know that they have our confidence in the difficult task they have to perform. This is in no sense any criticism of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He wanted to know the Government's views.

I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North said about the police force.

On Class IV (2), great efforts are being made with various schemes to train people. My hon. Friend was right to mention the building trade. Much will need to be re-built in the Province. It will be necessary to use modern methods of building construction. This means new techniques and men being trained in those techniques.

My hon. Friend was right to mention the Youth Employment Service Board and its work in seeking to show job opportunities for young people. I have heard of, and I know, the good work that it does in helping school leavers to find jobs.

My hon. Friend referred to the houses where the water supply is cut off. This is not a laughing matter. I must be careful what I say, but at the place where Ministers stay the water supply is cut off and we have to fill a bath. The most practical way of dealing with the problem is to have a plastic bucket. That is how one has to operate when the water is cut off. I appreciate the problem, and particularly as it relates to the 150 houses that are connected direct to the mains. Perhaps my hon. Friend is saying that they have no facilities for the storage of water.

Mr. Kilfedder

That is so.

Mr. Mills

It is odd that there is no storage tank in the house to give them a certain amount of water, and I shall look into that problem.

The next matter raised was that of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Complaints and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration. He is the same man, and he gets one salary. The other moneys are for his staff. That is the position as I understand it.

My hon. Friend referred to the Social Need Act and to the efforts that have been made in North Down to obtain a grant but so far without success. He made a serious complaint about the youth wing. We shall look into that, but I remind my hon. Friend, though I do not suppose he will like me for saying this, that it is a question of priorities. I can understand an hon. Member fighting as hard as he can for his constituency—that is the correct thing to do—but in the circumstances in Northern Ireland so much money is needed for areas that are even worse off than that of my hon. Friend's that I think he will agree there must be a system of priorities. However, I shall look into the matter.

Mr. Kilfedder

My only point is that there are a number of young people in the area who get into trouble with the police, and that is why it is essential to have this youth wing.

Mr. Mills

I have promised to look into the matter.

I note what my hon. Friend said about houses, and I trust that what he said will be noted by the housing executive and the various authorities. Things are difficult over there. It is a question of priorities because of the extreme difficulties under which they are trying to work.

I must correct what my hon. Friend said in connection with the new prison. I do not agree with his criticism of civil servants. It is the duty of civil servants to think, though my hon. Friend suggested that they should not do so. My view is that they should look at the picture as a whole and give Ministers the best advice that they can, and I am sure that that is what they do.

I am full of praise for the civil servants in the Ministries in Northern Ireland with which I am concerned. We must pay a tribute to them because they do a first-class job, and I must take my hon. Friend up on what he said. It is important to realise that there may be some delay in finding the best site and seeing whether the site that is eventually selected is the best one to meet future needs, and so on. All that is done by civil servants, and they do it extremely well.

Mr. Kilfedder

I, too, pay tribute to the civil servants. Most of those who work at Dundonald House live in my constituency. The prison is urgently needed, and I hope that my hon. Friend can tell me what is to be done.

Mr. Mills

I am sure that my hon. Friend's views will be noted.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) is concerned about the elderly, and I think he is right to be concerned. This is a problem. These people are coming to the end of their lives, and the difficulties with which they have to contend must be an extremely heavy burden for them. I am sure that the Minister who deals with these matters will consider any specific problem which my hon. Friend is prepared to put forward.

Questions were asked about the Ministry of Commerce. Large sums of money are being used, but the money is being spent on important projects. It is being used to attract new industry and launch new schemes and new factories in order to get things under way. I agree with my hon. Friend when he says that it is a question not only of introducing new schemes and bringing in new people and new industries but of looking after the existing industries, and I am sure that the Ministry of Commerce will take note of what has been said.

We have had an interesting debate, and I conclude by asking the House to approve the order.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 12th June, be approved.