HC Deb 06 November 1972 vol 845 cc597-600
3. Mr. Rowlands

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement on the report on the management arrangements for the reorganised Health Service in Wales.

Mr. Peter Thomas

The report contains the recommendations of a steering committee set up to advise me on detailed management organisation within the proposed new health authorities. It was widely distributed, without commitment, to health and allied organisations in September in order that they may comment on it by the end of November. I shall not be forming conclusions on these recommendations until I have considered the comments.

Mr. Rowlands

Does not the Minister think that the management consultancy and the steering committee should have had the decency to consult the Welsh Hospital Board, the one representative body for Wales dealing with health, before publishing its report? In view of the considerable expense—over £70,000 paid out to an American management firm—will he now send it packing and reorganise the Health Service on democratic principles based on the 1948 Act?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The steering committee, which was assisted by a study group which contained National Health Service officers and the management consultants referred to, made its own recommendations. The committee did not formally consult any authority although some authority members offered informal views. There were numerous informal discussions with officers of the Welsh Hospital Board and other authorities.

Mr. George Thomas

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm the figure mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Rowlands) of £70,000 spent on considering the reorganisation of the Health Service in Wales? Is he aware that we could tell him plenty of ways in which he could have spent that £70,000?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The sum of money approximates to the figure mentioned by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil and was the proper fee one would pay to management consultants for work which they did. I have already announced the figure involved.

11. Mr. Alec Jones

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received regarding the proposed reorganisation of the health services in Wales.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I have received many representations mainly as comments on proposals outlined in the consultative document. Some are now coming in on the proposals in the White Paper and on the Welsh Health Management Study Steering Committee report.

Mr. Jones

Does the Secretary of State realise that those of us on this side of the House who live in Wales and represent Welsh constituencies feel strongly that any Bill to bring about a reorganisation of the Health Service in Wales must be subjected to detailed scrutiny by Welsh Members, that this can be done only if we have a separate Bill for Wales and that we shall not take kindly to a sell-out similar to that on local government reorganisation?

Mr. Peter Thomas

I assure the hon. Gentleman that there will not be a sellout, as he describes it. The fundamental provisions will be the same for both countries. Differences arising from the proposal that there should be no regional health authority in Wales need occupy only a small part of the Bill, and hon. Members will have all the normal opportunities to examine and discuss its provisions. Discussions are taking place for this to be debated in the Welsh Grand Committee.

Mr. Rowlands

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman put pressure on the Leader of the House to change his mind about introducing a separate Bill? Is not this another example of the Welsh Office ducking its parliamentary responsibility in not being prepared to defend its Welsh proposals in a separate Bill before the proper Committee of this House?

Mr. Peter Thomas

Obviously the hon. Gentleman did not listen to what I said. The fundamental provisions of the Bill will be the same for both countries, and it will be Statutes common to both England and Wales which will be subject to discussion and amendment. The one difference, which is the absence of a regional tier in Wales, will occupy only a small part of the Bill.

Mr. Nicholas Edwards

Is my right hon. and learned friend aware that many of us on this side of the House who take a keen interest in these matters would regard it as an intolerable waste of parliamentary time if we had to discuss separate Bills dealing with virtually the same proposals for both countries?

Mr. Peter Thomas

If there were two Bills, most of their provisions would be common. For that reason there would be duplication.

Mr. George Thomas

Has the Secretary of State forgotten that he has executive authority for the Health Service in Wales, that he issued a separate White Paper dealing with the Health Service in Wales and that, having produced his own separate set, it is clear that either he does not carry sufficient weight in the Cabinet to get a Welsh Bill or that he has been overruled by his colleagues?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The right hon. Gentleman, not for the first time, is wrong. I have looked into the matter carefully. Appreciating all the problems involved in a separate Welsh Bill, I have come to the conclusion that it would be wrong to have a separate Bill.