§ Mr. LeonardOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In his Reply to Question No. 30 the Minister for Housing and Construction accused my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) of having received stolen goods. In the Standing Committee on the—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The content of the answer is not really a matter for a point of order to me.
§ Mr. LeonardIs it not intolerable that a Minister, having already withdrawn the lesser epithet "purloined" in the Standing Committee, should come to the House and use a much stronger epithet? Should he not be asked to withdraw?
§ Mr. SpeakerWhat happens in a Standing Committee is not for me at all.
§ Mr. HefferIt happened here.
§ Mr. SpeakerA Minister or an hon. Member takes responsibility for his own statements. There is nothing out of order in making an allegation of this sort. Whether it is right or wrong is nothing to do with the Chair, but it was not out of order.
§ The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. Julian Amery)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In case it may help to remove any misunderstanding, may I point out that I withdrew the accusation that the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) had purloined a document but repeated, or stated, in Committee—no doubt the hon. Member was not serving the Committee at that moment—that he had received stolen goods.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. What happens in a Standing Committee is not for me.
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is not for me. As I say, a right hon. or hon. Member must take his own responsibility for what he says.
§ Mr. CroslandFurther to that point of Order. Under the normal procedures of the House, Mr. Speaker, you ask, and 1449 indeed compel, hon. Members to withdraw the word "bloody", to withdraw the word "liar", to withdraw epithets of that kind. Is it not infinitely more serious than using the word 'bloody" to call someone a receiver of stolen goods?
§ Mr. SpeakerI did not understand that the imputation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—was of being a receiver of stolen goods in the criminal sense of the term. I did not understand that at all. But, anyhow, this is not a matter for the Chair. The Minister must take responsibility for it.
§ Mr. Arthur LewisFurther to the original point of order. I believe that it was within the hearing of yourself, Mr. Speaker, and certainly of hon. Members sitting here, that, in addition to making the statement which the Minister has repeated, he also mentioned "thieving". Surely it cannot be in order for a Minister to impute—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. No suggestion of thieving was made in my hearing.
§ Mr. Clinton DavisOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What the Minister has said categorically is that my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) received stolen goods. This is not, and cannot be construed as being, representative of some civil tort. It is a clear and explicit imputation of crime. How far can an hon. Member go? Would it be right, for instance, for an hon. Member to refer to the Minister as a crook?
§ Mr. SpeakerAs I already said, I did not understand the Minister's suggestion to be of a criminal offence on the part of another hon. Member. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to assist me on this point, that he was not making any suggestion of a criminal offence.
§ Mr. AmeryIn response to your suggestion, Mr. Speaker, let me make it quite clear that all that I am saying is that the hon. Member received a document which should not have been made available to him, a document which was issued confidentially—
§ Mr. Ron LewisWithdraw your original remark.
§ Mr. Amery—to local authority officials working with my Department. The document should not have been made available to the hon. Member. In that sense he was receiving a document improperly communicated to him.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. That is where the matter must rest. I call the Chairman of Ways and Means—
§ Mr. FreesonOn a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerNo, I have called the Chairman of Ways and Means.
§ Mr. FreesonOn a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerI have called the Chairman of Ways and Means—
§ Mr. SpeakerI am not going to accept any more points of order on that point. Chairman of Ways and Means.
§ The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris)With permission, Mr. Speaker—
§ Mr. FreesonOn a point of order—
§ Mr. Le MarchantName him!
§ The ChairmanWith permission, Mr. Speaker—
§ Mr. SpeakerI will take a different point of order after the Chairman has made his statement.
§ Mrs. Renée ShortNo, take this one.
§ Mr. George Cunninghamrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I will take a different point of order after the Chairman's statement.