§ 31. Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister for the Civil Service what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government regarding future changes in the total number of non-industrial civil servants.
§ Mr. Kenneth BakerTo employ no more than are required to carry out efficiently the tasks laid upon the Civil Service.
§ Sir J. Langford-HoltAs my hon. Friend, like me, is committed to the reduction of this figure and as it has gone up considerably since 1970, may I ask by what date he expects the figure to be as low as it was in 1970?
§ Mr. BakerOn 1st July 1970 the total number of civil servants was 701,790. On 1st October 1972 the comparable figure was 690,985. Therefore, there has been a modest reduction.
My hon. Friend will recall that I have already told the House that in view of the increasing work particularly of the Department of Health and Social Security, the Inland Revenue and Customs and 1332 Excise there will be increases in this figure.
§ Mr. SheldonShould not the hon. Gentleman be more honest with his hon. Friend and answer the question which he rightly put to him? Is it or is it not the Government's intention to reduce the numbers of non-industrial civil servants?
§ Mr. BakerI have stated clearly the total number of industrial and non-industrial civil servants. I am very surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite should try to retain the distinction between blue-collar and white-collar jobs. I assure the House that since taking office I have seen Ministers in each Department, I have reviewed their forecasts for the next two years, and substantial reductions have been made in those forecasts.
§ Mr. MartenWhen my hon. Friend is briefed to give the answer to the question that has been asked, may I ask whether the numbers will include those who are in the cabinets? What does he mean by "cabinets"? Could he not use an English word?
§ Mr. BakerMy hon. Friend never gives up. British civil servants who are appointed to positions in Europe will no longer count as British civil servants. They will be employed by the respective bodies for which they work in the Community.
§ Mr. SheldonBy his constant refusal to answer the question put to him by his hon. Friend the Minister has put himself in some difficulty. Is it not the fact that when the Government do not like figures they tend to fudge them in a number of areas? Are they now fudging them between industrial and non-industrial civil servants? These figures were always kept separate.
§ Mr. BakerThese figures are published every quarter. The hon. Gentleman knows they are published separately.
§ Mr. SheldonTell us them.
§ Mr. BakerI refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave giving the figures for 1st October. They are published separately. I make no pretence at trying to fudge the figures at all. We are proud of the efficiency with which we have attended to the problem of numbers in the civil service.