HC Deb 07 December 1972 vol 847 cc1670-4

The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:

29. Mr. GOODHART

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to seek to amend the laws relating to subversive organisations or organisations which support terrorism.

33 and 40. Mr. KILFEDDER

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he will seek powers to ban the collection of funds for the purchase of arms, ammunition and explosives for use by terrorist organisations; and (2) if he will introduce legislation to render it unlawful for anyone living or residing anywhere within the United Kingdom to be a member of the Irish Republican Army or any branch thereof.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Robert Carr)

I will, with permission, answer these Questions now.

I have reviewed all these matters afresh in the light of recent developments. Certain precautions have been taken against the possibility of attempts by members of the IRA to seek sanctuary in Great Britain, but it would not be in the public interest to give details. I have already made it clear that, where appropriate, I shall make full use of the extended powers of deportation conferred on me by the Immigration Act which comes into force at the beginning of next month. Although I am not persuaded on the information at present known to me that there are grounds for seeking fresh powers from Parliament, I am determined that Great Britain should not become a haven of refuge for members of the IRA or of any other extremist organisation which resorts to violence. I shall keep the position under very close scrutiny, and shall not hesitate to ask for further powers if it seems that they are needed.

Mr. Goodhart

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he bear in mind that many of us are concerned that now that the Governments in Dublin and Bonn are increasing, or appear to be increasing, pressure on terrorist organisations in their own countries, there is a danger that many dangerous men will seek to enter this country? Some of us are concerned lest London become the terrorist capital of the Western world.

As Lord Diplock is now carrying out a review of legal practices in Northern Ireland, to see how it can be made easier to bring to book those who plan and finance terrorism, will my right hon. Friend ask him to extend the review to the whole of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Carr

I think that we must wait and see what Lord Diplock has to say about Northern Ireland. We will certainly take into account anything he says.

I assure my hon. Friend that I am aware of the very real concern that there may be increased inward pressure into this country by people seeking a haven not only from Ireland but, as my hon. Friend said, from other places as well. I assure my hon. Friend that I keep the adequacy of my powers under very close scrutiny the whole time, but my view about the rightness of our present policy is one which I have come to after the closest consultaton with the authorities concerned.

Mr. McNamara

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people would look with apprehension upon any system which chose to find people guilty by association or to proscribe organisations per se and which would not just take individual cases on their merits? Is he further aware that the nature of the legislation in Northern Ireland under the Special Powers Act and of the legislation just passed in the Republic is in many ways abhorrent to what we would accept as the standard British practice of having to prove a person guilty of an offence? Therefore, whilst one does not want this country to be a haven for murderers or thugs, wherever they come from and whoever they are—whether they be Catholic or Protestant, Jew or Moslem—we have our own traditional liberties to protect, which we would not want to lose.

Mr. Carr

I am sure that the sort of considerations which the hon. Gentleman has adduced would always be taken into very close account by any Home Secretary in any Government of whatever party. Hitherto, we have found, not only on libertarian grounds but on grounds of security of our own public, that our present practice of not proscribing organisations as such has been the better one.

Mr. McMaster

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great concern felt in Northern Ireland arising from recent answers to questions by the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General and others, to the effect that neither the leaders of the IRA who have been invited to this country nor members of the IRA can be restricted or charged for any offence in this country, despite the fact that they have claimed responsibility for the cold-blooded murder of over 100 British soldiers and many hundreds of civilians, even women and children, by their activities in Northern Ireland, and despite the fact that both the Government of the Republic and the Government of Northern Ireland themselves have been able to introduce legislation to proscribe such organisations?

Mr. Carr

I do not draw that deduction from the answers I have heard given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or by any other member of the Government. I should point out, however, that if anyone who has committed a crime in Northern Ireland under the law in Northern Ireland, and has had an arrest warrant issued against him, comes to this country that warrant can be backed and can be enforced by the police against him while he is still here.

Mr. Thorpe

I do not dissent from the general principles enunciated by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), but would not the Home Secretary agree that he has recourse to the courts in any case where there is likely to be a breach of the peace? Is it not also the case that anyone who belongs to the IRA and subscribes to its aims prima facie may well fall into that category?

Mr. Carr

There are several powers, but I think that the powers to keep out and to get rid of undesirable people are the powers which matter most. They are already not inconsiderable but will be further extended from 1st January next.

Sir F. Bennett

My right hon. Friend mentioned deportation. How effective is deportation in practice in view of the fact that anyone deported to Dublin can return straight back to England via another port of entry? My right hon. Friend has not mentioned the collection of funds. Is this to remain legal from the point of view of funds collected for the purchase of arms?

Mr. Carr

On the question about offence caused by the collection of funds, hitherto we have taken the view—I still take it—that trying to make such collection of funds illegal would be difficult to enforce, quite apart from anything else. There are, however, possibilities even there under certain laws, in that if the collection of funds is offensive in certain ways there are statutes under which action might be taken.

There is already power to prevent entry, and it will be stronger after 1st January. I assure the House that we are aware that there are undesirable people wishing to come here. But when they do come here, and are found to be here, there is power to ask them and to get them to leave, and, as I have said, that power will be stronger as from 1st January.

Mr. John Fraser

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that he will have adequate resources at the ports of entry to make sure that these people do not enter the United Kingdom? Is he certain that he has adequate resources inside the United Kingdom to deal with people who might be members of the IRA but hold British citizenship and therefore could not under existing law be debarred from entering the country, but who should nevertheless be watched carefully while they are here?

Mr. Carr

To say that one has adequate resources is difficult. Whatever problem one has, no doubt one would always like more resources than one has to deal with it. I have considered this matter very carefully with the Commissioner, who is particularly responsible, and we are satisfied as much as we can be at the moment that our resources are reasonably adequate and that our powers are not only adequate but of the kind that we would choose to have, at least to meet the situation as it exists. Of course, I realise that the situation may change, and that is why I have promised the House that I will watch it continually.