§ Q5. Mr. Duffyasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official meeting with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic on 24th November.
§ Q15. Mr. Wintertonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official meeting with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic on 24th November.
§ Q17. Miss Joan Hallasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement following his official meeting on 24th November with the Prime Minister of Eire.
§ The Prime MinisterAs I told hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) on 28th November, when Mr. Lynch suggested that we should meet during his visit to this country, I was glad to invite him to dinner on Friday 24th November. We discussed a number of issues of interest to both our countries, including the situation in Northern Ireland.—[Vol. 847, c. 103.]
§ Mr. DuffyDoes not the Prime Minister agree that it is difficult to accept that he and Mr. Lynch could talk for three hours without each giving the other a small insight into his intentions? We know what Mr. Lynch was considering, and we know that he carried it out. Does not the Prime Minister see that the ball is now in his court and that he must be every bit as resolute, in view of the sombre but very perceptive comments made last weekend by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition?
§ The Prime MinisterI cannot accept that analysis in the least. Mr. Lynch and I have had a considerable number of meetings over the last 18 months and we have always been able to discuss very frankly the issues affecting his country and ours. We do that as Heads of two sovereign Governments. I cannot accept that the ball is in anyone's court, or that we have to show any need to be resolute. For our part, we have been carrying through our actions, politically and militarily, and I am glad that Mr. Lynch has taken the measures he thinks right for his own country.
§ Mr. WintertonI welcome the meeting between the Prime Minister and Mr. Lynch and the tougher measures that Mr. Lynch and his Government are taking against the IRA, but is my right hon. Friend aware that in some quarters it is thought that a deal may have been done between the Government and the Government of the Republic over the unity of the two parts of Ireland? If that is so, will not more bloodshed rather than less result?
§ The Prime MinisterI cannot believe that that view is held in any responsible quarter. I cannot believe that anyone can be under the impression that I or any member of the Government will do what my hon. Friend describes as a deal to bring about the unity of Ireland. I hope that neither he nor any other hon. Member or hon. Friend will create suspicion of that kind, which is absolutely and entirely unjustified and which, moreover, can lead to increased danger to the security forces, and increased bloodshed.
§ Mr. Merlyn ReesIs the Prime Minister aware that on my recent visit to Northern Ireland I was told by all sides that law and order had greatly deterior- 1668 ated? Yesterday morning I met a delegation from the Unionist Party who told me clearly that unless the party got what it wanted in the White Paper there would be civil war. Did the Prime Minister discuss overall security with Mr. Lynch and arrange for co-operation between the authorities north and south of the border?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Gentleman must form his own judgment about anything that he was told by representatives of a political party in Northern Ireland, but I hope that these matters will not be exaggerated or inflamed. As a result of the talks which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is having with political parties, I believe that it will be possible to get a much greater understanding of what the Government are trying to achieve in the political sphere. On every occasion when Mr. Lynch and I met we discussed security in great detail. We are prepared to cooperate in every possible way with the Republic to improve security on the border and anywhere else, but co-operation has to come from both sides.
§ Miss Joan HallWill the Prime Minister say what information the Government have, and whether they have taken action, about the rockets of Russian and Eastern European origin which have been used in Northern Ireland?
§ The Prime MinisterThe Foreign and Commonwealth Office yesterday formally asked the Soviet Embassy for the cooperation of the Soviet Government in establishing the origin of the rockets. The embassy was given full details, including details of the markings on the rockets. The Soviet Embassy undertook to report this, and I hope that we shall have the co-operation of the Soviet Government in effectively tracing the source of the rockets.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole House will not only fully accept what he has just said about a deal but, if there is to be any surprise, the surprise is that such a rumour could even have been started. The whole House endorses what the right hon. Gentleman has said. As there has also been a Press suggestion of another deal with Mr. Lynch, about which there has been a démenti by Ministers overnight, will he confirm that 1669 there is no suggestion of any agreement, whatever the right hon. Gentleman might have offered Mr. Lynch, to drop the case before the European Commission on Human Rights? Will he confirm that there has been no deal, as has been suggested in the Press.
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir, I have no arrangement with the Government of the Republic of Ireland.
§ Captain OrrI very much welcome what my right hon. Friend and the Leader of the Opposition have said in clearing the air about the suggestion of a deal. I accept that no such deal has been done. My right hon. Friend said that he had convinced Mr. Lynch that we were doing all we could in the way of co-operation on security on the border. Is he satisfied that machinery exists for co-operation from the South in preventing incidents on the border which are causing great danger to human life?
§ The Prime MinisterI should like to leave it that we discussed this matter in detail and that we are offering every co-operation. I think that Mr. Lynch has shown by the actions that he has taken in the Republic in the last 10 days that he, too, wishes to deal with the problem.
§ Mr. John MendelsonAs the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, with the full support of the House, is taking vigorous action against the IRA, will the Prime Minister assure the House that equally vigorous action will be taken against the extremist section of the UDA, particularly in connection with the illegal wearing of uniforms in public demonstrations?
§ The Prime MinisterI can give the hon. Gentleman and the House that assurance. I have already explained, and many hon. Members accept, that for a long time on this type of legislation there was a considerable problem about the legal definition of what constitutes a uniform in this sense. The hon. Gentleman asks about the action taken. Since Operation Motorman more than 130 firearms and more than 15,000 rounds of ammunition have been seized by security forces in Protestant areas, and that shows that effective action is being 1670 taken there. This compares with just over 500 weapons and 27,000 rounds of ammunition taken in Catholic areas. I hope that nobody will dispute that the security forces are taking immediate action whenever they get intelligence about arms.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonI am sorry to press the Prime Minister on this, but on the question of arms, which we have raised many times, is it not a fact that a high proportion of the arms which are being carried by people wearing uniforms—if the issue of uniforms is doubtful, it can be tested in the courts—are legal arms, and that these searches are directed mainly against illegal arms?
§ The Prime MinisterI think that there is a genuine difference of opinion here. I know that the right hon. Gentleman maintains that all arms should be called in. In fact, full-bore rifles have been called in and are being held in armories. The need for existing licences is regularly examined. The real problem is to get at the illegal arms, which is what the security forces are doing. The figures since Operation Motorman show the extent that this is being done, whether it be in the Protestant or the Catholic areas.