HC Deb 04 December 1972 vol 847 cc1041-4

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to local government and the functions of local authorities in Scotland, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  1. (a) any expenses incurred by any Minister under that Act;
  2. (b) any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other enactment; and
  3. (c) the expenses of the Local Government Boundary Commission for Scotland together with any sums payable to persons appointed under that Act to assist and advise that Commission.—[Mr. Younger.]

10.1 p.m.

Dr. J. Dickson Mabon (Greenock)

Paragraph (c) of the Money Resolution refers to the expenses of the Local Government Boundary Commission together with sums payable to persons appointed to assist and advise it. What I do not understand is that in the Bill there is provision for a commission dealing with audits, and understand that that is covered by paragraph (a) of the Money Resolution.

I have two questions to ask. First, why is paragraph (c) necessary? Is it because this is a special part of the Bill that has to be itemised in this form as it may involve the payment of moneys, not by the Secretary of State but by persons acting for the Local Government Boundary Commission?

Secondly, if in Committee we were to move an amendment to establish a local government commission on functions—I realise that the Minister did not have time to reply to all the points, and I accept that he was not discourteous—should we be covered by paragraphs (a) and (b) and therefore be in order, or would an amending paragraph (d), similar to paragraph (c), be required to enable the body to be called a Local Government Functions Commission, or something like that, which was entitled to pay persons who worked for and advised it?

Why is paragraph (c) there? If we want a commission that is not mentioned in the Bill shall we be entitled to deal with it in Committee, or will the Money Resolution bar us from doing so? I have spoken for long enough to enable the Minister to receive the appropriate advice.

10.3 p.m.

Mr. Norman Buchan (Renfrew, West)

I should have thought that most hon. Members present would be dissatisfied with the Minister's reply. That is an understatement of his analysis of the situation facing the West Region in the event of the establishment of yet another division within it. To choose three of the worst involvements of responsibility in order to show that there is no case for the devolving of structures and functions within the West Region is not good enough.

I understand that the Committee considering the Bill will be a give-and-take Committee. I hope that all the giving will not be from our side and all the taking by the other. The Committee may decide to establish a commission to investigate the possibility of a three-tier structure within the West Region, particularly for education and social work. Will that be covered by paragraphs (a) and (b)?

We are still not satisfied that sufficient thought has been given to the whole problem of the payment of councillors. I hope we can get it confirmed that the payment of councillors will be covered by the Money Resolution. People in Scotland recognise that unless councillors are paid there will be a one-sided set up. I ask the Secretary of State to tell his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate that we are discussing paragraphs (a) and (b) of the Money Resolution, and that I am not out of order.

We must get a definitive answer on those two points before we pass the Money Resolution.

10.5 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Development, Scottish Office (Mr. George Younger)

I think that what the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Mabon) was suggesting in his second point was virtually another commission. It would need an amended resolution, which could be done if it were wanted, for another commission to deal with another subject. On his first point, the reason for this requirement is that the Boundary Commission is not on a Secretary of State Vote: thus, it has to be provided by funds provided by Parliament, and that is why it needs to be specified in this case.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

Could it be amended to a Boundary "and Functions" Commission? In that case, would we need to amend the Money Resolution?

Mr. Younger

I would need notice of that. That is a difficult point, on which we would have to check precedent. What the hon. Gentleman wanted to know on his main point was what would be necessary if he wanted to introduce something different. I have given the answer to that.

Mr. William Hannan (Glasgow, Maryhill)

Why were all the clauses relating to this matter included in a Bill of this kind at all? Why not a separate Bill? It would have been big enough, with 12 or 16 clauses—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris)

Order. That question is out of order.

Mr. Russell Johnston (Inverness)

Is the Minister saying that if, in Committee, the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Mabon) wished to move an amendment to allow this Commission to deal with functions as well as with boundaries, he would be debarred from doing so by the terms of this resolution?

Mr. Younger

I am advised that it would be possible to extend the remit of the Boundary Commission to undertake extra tasks, as the hon. Member has outlined, but, as I am speaking very much off the cuff on this matter, and it is a very brief view, I must make it clear that I have not had a chance to check up on it. But I will do so if the hon. Gentleman wishes.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to local government and the functions of local authorities in Scotland, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  1. (a) any expenses incurred by any Minister under that Act;
  2. (b) any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other enactment; and
  3. (c) the expenses of the Local Government Boundary Commission for Scotland, together with any sums payable to persons appointed under that Act to assist and advise that Commission.