HC Deb 12 April 1972 vol 834 cc1254-7
28. Mr. Dalyell

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what discussions he is having with the First Division Association and other Civil Service unions about legal protection for civil servants.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department (Mr. Kenneth Baker)

None, Sir.

Mr. Dalyell

We congratulate the hon. Gentleman on assuming office, but will he reflect on whether certain civil servants should be pilloried in public? While we await a debate on the Vehicle and General affair, will he address himself to the issue how civil servants are to be expected to defend themselves when evidence of their supposed shortcomings is not presented? Does he not agree that these are grave issues?

Mr. Baker

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his words of welcome. The matter he raises is important for civil servants and is of some concern to my Department. The National Staff Side has made representations on the specific points which have been referred to and they have been noted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

Mr. Sheldon

We congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment and we wish him well. Will he go further into this matter? There are some civil servants who are now under considerable suspicion for the part they played in the Vehicle and General affair, and until a debate takes place in this House they will find themselves in a difficult position since there are no charges for them to answer and nobody to put their point of view. Will the hon. Gentleman press upon his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House the need for a debate so that these civil servants may have an opportunity of having their case made?

Mr. Baker

I will do that. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said on 9th March that there would be a debate in Government time. I am sure that it will take place shortly and I assure the hon. Member that the matter he raised concerning the three civil servants will be specifically dealt with in that debate.

30. Sir G. Nabarro

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many civil servants fewer were employed on 1st April, 1972, compared with 1st July. 1970.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

Information about the actual number of civil servants on 1st April, 1972, will be available early next month. Provision has been made in the 1972–73 Estimates for 694,632 staff on 1st April, 1972, on the basis described in the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) on 9th November, 1971. The number on 1st July, 1970, was 701,790

Sir G. Nabarro

May I be the first on this side of the House to congratulate my hon. Friend on his elevation to the Treasury Bench to answer for the bureaucracy? Will he try to do better than his predecessor, who during the last 20 months has presided over a miniscule contraction of the bureaucracy? Will he not try to give it a shove in accordance with Tory policy in the last election—which was to bring about a dramatic reduction in the size of the public service?

Mr. Baker

I thank my hon. Friend for his words of welcome, and I appreciate that they were deftly placed between my shoulder blades. I assure him that it is of concern to my Department and to other Government Departments that there should be constant pressure to ensure that the number of staff is no more than is needed.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown

Has the Minister given any thought to resigning from the Government because of the failure to implement a Tory pledge? If there are to be extra civil servants, will he see that some of them are directed to the regions in the greatest possible numbers in the shortest possible time?

Mr. Baker

It is a little early in the day for me to consider the course of action indicated by the hon. Member, but I assure him that one of the ongoing studies being carried out by my Department relates to the dispersal of civil servants. It will be well known to hon. Members opposite that a small delegation will visit the National Savings Bank in Glasgow on Friday.

Mr. Robert Cooke

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the need for an urgent decision on the matter of dispersal of staff since this question bedevils the whole subject of the future of Parliament Square and Whitehall and, indeed, the whole environment of this part of London?

Mr. Baker

Yes, I assure my hon. Friend that the study on dispersal is going ahead. I hope that it will be completed by the end of this year.

Mr. Marks

Has any estimate been made of a decrease in the number of civil servants as a result of the provisions of the Housing Finance Bill which will lead to an inevitable increase in the number of local government servants?

Mr. Baker

Estimates have been made of the whole size of the public service, but I would point out that, in view of many of the programmes for the benefit of the people which we have introduced, additional civil servants will be required. If hon. Members opposite wish to criticise the Government on this matter, they must say whether they wish to see the attendance allowance and the family income supplement paid.

31. Mr. Arthur Lewis

asked the Minister for the Civil Service to what extent he estimates that all Government Departments will be able to reduce the number of non-industrial civil servants by 5 per cent. within the next two years and in the first two years of Great Britain's entry into the European Economic Community.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

The staff in Departments depends on the amount of work they are required to carry out.

Mr. Lewis

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Tories knew all these things when they made their election pledges, one of which was that in spite of any so-called improvements they would seek to reduce the number of civil servants? When do they intend to implement that policy?

Mr. Baker

I do not know whether the hon. Member was present when I answered my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro).

Mr. Lewis

Yes, I was.

Mr. Baker

Then he would have heard me say that there has been a modest reduction. The increased programmes of the present Government in terms of welfare, Home Office and Government training matters require some increase in those Departments.

Mr. Sydney Chapman

Although there can be no doubt that there may be a need for more civil servants to operate and administer the value-added tax when it comes into being, will my hon. Friend also confirm that when the Government's full fiscal reforms are implemented, in terms of tax credits and combined income tax and surtax, there will be a dramatic decrease in the number of civil servants?

Mr. Baker

Further Questions have been tabled on this matter, but my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made clear that there would be an increase in staff for V.A.T. but a substantial saving in staff through positive tax credits, if that scheme meets the approval of the House.

Mr. Sheldon

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that there will be a reduction in the numbers of non-industrial civil servants?

Mr. Baker

Like my predecessor I am reluctant to make estimates, but I can assure the hon. Member—who has great knowledge of and an interest in these matters—that there is constant vigilance in my Department, and among all Ministers, about the size of staffs they need to fulfil their programmes.