HC Deb 09 December 1971 vol 827 cc1504-14
Mr. Houghton

May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?

The Lord President of the Council end Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw)

Yes, Sir. It may be convenient if I announce today the proposed business until the House rises for the Christmas Adjournment:

MONDAY, 13TH DECEMBER—Private Members' Motions until 7 o'clock.

Afterwards, Second Reading of the Employment Medical Advisory Service Bill, of the Sierra Leone Republic Bill (Lords), and of the Island of Rockall Bill (Lords).

Motions on the Rate Support Grant (Increase) Order and the Double Taxation Relief (Trinidad and Tobago) Order.

TUESDAY, 14TH DECEMBER—Civil List Resolutions.

Motions on the Textile Council Orders.

WEDNESDAY, 15TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.

THURSDAY, 16TH DECEMBER—Remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund Bill.

Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill.

Remaining stages of the Superannuation Bill.

FRIDAY, 17TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Airports Authority Bill.

MONDAY, 20TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill.

Resolutions relating to parliamentary remuneration.

Remaining stages of the National Insurance Regulations (Validation) Bill.

Motions on the Immunities and Privileges Orders.

TUESDAY, 21ST DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Civil List Bill and of the Harbours (Loans) Bill;

Remaining stages of the Sierra Leone Republic Bill (Lords) and the Island of Rockall Bill (Lords).

Consideration of Church of England (General Synod) Measures.

WEDNESDAY, 22ND DECEMBER—It is expected that the House will meet at 11 a.m., that Questions will be taken until 12 noon and that the House will adjourn at 5 p.m. until Monday, 17th January.

Mr. Houghton

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for meeting the convenience of the House by stating the business right up to Christmas.

I have four points about which I should like to question the right hon. Gentleman. The first is about possible statements next week. Is the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary likely to make a statement on the grave events in the conflict between India and Pakistan?

Second, the Prime Minister appears to have made an announcement at the meeting of the National Council of Social Service yesterday regarding further expenditure on the voluntary social services. Is the Secretary of State for Social Services likely to make a statement next week on this matter?

My third and fourth questions relate to the business for the week commencing Monday, 20th December. First, regarding the Second Reading of the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill and the Resolutions relating to parliamentary remuneration. I understand that it is the intention to debate both together. May we be assured that the debate will be able to range over the Bill and the Motions at the same time?

Next, regarding the Second Reading of the Civil List Bill on Tuesday, 21st December, is it the right hon. Gentleman's intention to take the Committee and remaining stages of the Measure on the Floor of the House?

Mr. Whitelaw

The answer to the right hon. Gentleman's first question is that my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary is due to answer Questions on Monday and will certainly make a statement on Monday about the grave situation in India and Pakistan.

The answer to the second question is that I will certainly call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services to what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I do not know whether a statement will be made. I cannot commit my right hon. Friend to making one, but I will certainly consult him on the subject.

If it is in your judgment correct, Mr. Speaker, and if it is the wish of the House, that the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill and the Resolutions relating to parliamentary remuneration should be taken together, then that would be entirely suitable to the Government. The answer to the right hon. Gentleman's third question, therefore, is that we are entirely in Mr. Speaker's hands and in the hands of the House in this matter. On the fourth point, it certainly is the intention that the Committee and remaining stages of the Civil List Bill will be taken on the floor of the House.

Mr. Wilkinson

In view of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary's commitment to make statements as appropriate on the developing India and Pakistan situation, would my right hon. Friend consider asking the Foreign Secretary to make a statement tomorrow, as I understand that there has been an attack on British shipping, and as Asians in this country have families who are seriously affected by the fighting and they would like news at the earliest opportunity?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure that the House will agree that in the present difficult and fluid situation it is important that any statement made to the House should be based on full and clear information. In those circumstances, I think that it would be right to say that my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will make the statement on Monday, but I could not possibly rule out, in the event of some particular serious occurrence, a statement being made tomorrow if it became necessary.

Mr. Peart

In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) and my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), last week, the Leader of the House said that he would investigate a matter concerning deputations. Has the right hon. Gentleman completed that investigation? If he has, when will there be a statement?

Mr. Whitelaw

Yes, certainly I have. I have been very fully into the matter, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for asking me about it. I can assure him, the hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) and all hon. Members that Ministers of this Government will always be ready, by arrangement, as is their duty, to see Members of the House. Naturally, it is always, and must remain, the practice that Ministers should have some discretion over deputations.

Sir R. Cary

Is my right hon. Friend aware that when we debated the Lawrence Report in May, 1965, concerning ministerial salaries, Members' remuneration and other related matters, the debate ranged over the whole matters concerned in the Lawrence Report?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I did appreciate that that was the position. But, as always in these cases, we are naturally, Mr. Speaker, bound by what you feel and by the general wishes of the House. I would hope that they could be taken together and that we could have the wide-ranging debate suggested by my hon. Friend. But the ultimate decision is not one for me.

Mr. Speaker

Order. On that point 1 am advised not to commit myself until I have seen the Motions.

Mr. David Steel

May I ask the Leader of the House when a statement will be made before Christmas about the final composition of the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia and the conditions under which it will carry out its task?

Mr. Whitelaw

At this stage, it is right that I should say that I will report what the hon. Gentleman has said to my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. I know that he wishes to get on with this matter as soon as he can.

Mr. Raison

Would my right hon. Friend consider the point that these very important regional plans, like the South-East Regional Plan, should at some point be put before the House? Everyone else seems to have a chance to contribute to or comment on them except ourselves. As the implications are important, may we have a chance to debate them?

Mr. Whitelaw

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I will consult with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment about the information given and how it is given. I could not promise time for a debate on these matters before Christmas, but I certainly note the importance to the House of what the hon. Gentleman said.

Mr. Carmichael

Has the Leader of the House any idea of when the Government will be bringing forward a Bill for the reorganisation of the Scottish Health Service? May we have an assurance that this matter will be debated first in the House and not in another place?

Mr. Whitelaw

I cannot say when that would be. I have no reason to suppose that, whenever it came forward, it would be debated in another place first.

Mr. Edward Taylor

Would my right hon. Friend say whether he anticipates that before the Christmas Recess a further statement will be made by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on the position of Upper Clyde Shipbuilders?

Mr. Whitelaw

I cannot say when such a statement will be made, but I will certainly call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Tinn

Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will try to make a statement before the Christmas Recess on the proposed British Steel Corporation development at Redcar, news of which is anxiously awaited in the area, and a favourable decision on which would be the best possible Christmas present to the people of Teesside?

Mr. Whitelaw

I note what the hon. Gentleman has said and I shall call that to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. These and other matters, no doubt, Mr. Speaker, could probably be debated on the Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill next Thursday.

Mr. Money

Could my right hon. Friend help on a matter which is a small one but much to the convenience of hon. Members, concerning the changing of dates of Standing Committees? The Statutory Orders Committee this week was changed, and hon. Members had only two days' notice. Notice was received on Monday to the effect that the Committee would be sitting on Tuesday instead of on Wednesday, which made it almost impossible for those of us who had to make prior arrangements to be present on that occasion.

Mr. Whitelaw

I am afraid that I know nothing of this matter, but naturally, in response to my hon. Friend, I will look into it.

Mr. Palmer

May I press the right hon. Gentleman on a point that I have raised before? We should have an opportunity in the House fairly soon to debate the Rothschild proposals on Government research, which are causing considerable concern in scientific circles.

Mr. Whitelaw

There are various reports on this important subject. I cannot give an undertaking about a debate, but I realise that it would be of value to the House if it could be arranged.

Mr. Cormack

May I ask my right hon. Friend to ensure that soon after Christmas we have full opportunity to debate metrication?

Mr. Whitelaw

I note what my hon. Friend has said, but I cannot make a commitment to any exact time at this stage.

Mr. Heffer

During the course of the debate and discussion about pensions, the Secretary of State for Social Services said that he would look at the question of some sort of extra allowance for heating. This was pressed on him by hon. Members on this side of the House particularly. Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether his right hon. Friend will make a statement about some sort of Christmas bonus, heating allowances or other extra financial aid to the old age pensioners before Christmas?

Mr. Whitelaw

I cannot commit myself to any such statement, but I shall certainly raise the matter with my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Marten

Can my right hon. Friend say when the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will be making a statement to the House on his visit to Brussels on Saturday?

Mr. Whitelaw

On Monday.

Mr. Douglas

Would the right hon. Gentleman accept the view that the current proposals for the size of the Scottish Standing Committee, which is to number 26, are quite unacceptable to this side of the House? Would he also indicate when the Government are likely to make a statement or give time to debate the White Paper on the reform of local government in Scotland?

Mr. Whitelaw

On the first point, this is a matter for the Committee of Selection and it is for the Committee to determine. On the second point, I understand that there was the offer to debate this subject in the Scottish Grand Committee last summer, which was not taken up.

Dr. Glyn

May I press my right hon. Friend on one point? When we debate the Boyle Report, is it correct that the House will have no opportunity of altering in any way any of the recommendations in that report and that it will be merely a general debate and expression of opinion?

Mr. Whitelaw

There are two parts. The first part relates to the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill. This is a normal Bill and there are opportunities for the House to alter this Bill, as there are to alter other Bills. Concerning Motions on remuneration, they come within the normal category of Motions that either have to be accepted or thrown out. That opportunity is available to the House.

Dr. Gilbert

May I remind the Leader of the House that it is now nearly 12 months since I last asked whether we could have a debate on the Crowther Report? As my right hon. Friend has suggested that legislation may be forthcoming, may we have an assurance that there will be a debate before the legislative proposals are laid before the House, as this report is very important.

Mr. Whitelaw

I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Mr. Wellbeloved

If the right hon. Gentleman concludes his consideration about the Christmas bonus for old age pensioners, would he take note that both sides of the House would be prepared to rush through the necessary legislation during one day, similar to the business that he has announced for next week?

Mr. Whitelaw

I did not commit myself to anything. I merely said that I would consult with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services about what my hon. Friend said. That remains my position.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

May I raise two matters? First, may I reinforce the plea for a statement from the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on U.C.S. in the light of the tragic death of Mr. Stenhouse and the need to give some comfort to those working to help U.C.S. over the Christmas and New Year period? Second, does he realise that we had to decline an invitation to debate the proposals on local government reform in Scotland because we had the proposals on housing finance and other business at that time? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Secretary of State has declared himself in favour of making a statement before the end of the year on the representations of the churches in Scotland and of the local authorities in Scotland in relation to very specific matters? That being so, may we have a day's debate in the House in the middle of January when we return?

Mr. Whitelaw

I appreciate the importance of the point about Upper Clyde Shipbuilders, particularly after the tragic death of Mr. Stenhouse, and so does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. I know that he will wish to keep the House fully informed. On the second point, I simply knew that this proposal had been refused. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for telling me the reasons for it. I also note what he has said about my right hon. Friend, whom I will consult on these matters.

Mr. Donald Stewart

As 18 months have passed since the General Election, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the Government intend to bring forward a Bill to establish a Scottish Assembly? I know that the right hon. Gentleman may say, "Not next week" but can he give us a date when the Government intend to bring it forward?

Mr. Whitelaw

Not before Christmas.

Major - General Jack d'Avigdor-Goldsmid

When will the House consider the Horserace Totalisator and Betting Levy Boards Bill?

Mr. Whitelaw

In view of what I have just said, this too will not be before Christmas.

Mr. Frank Allaun

We are all grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his statement a minute ago that Ministers are always willing to meet deputations accompanied by their Members. We were not so satisfied when, a minute later, he qualified it by saying that, of course, they must exercise their discretion. Would he point out to the Secretary of State for the Environment that he has just turned down two deputations accompanied by their M.P.s, one from the Association of London Housing Estates, representing 130 tenants' associations, and that the Minister made the excuse that he wanted something in writing? The Secretary of State now has it in writing from this Association, so would the right hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to exercise his discretion favourably in view of such important associations being involved?

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Gentleman must not put words into my mouth. In order that I should be particularly accurate in a matter which I realise affects the House and in order that I should be absolutely accurate in regard to the custom of previous Governments and this Government, I made the statement as I did in answer to the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart). In view of what the hon. Gentleman has now said I should read it again: "I can certainly assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that Ministers in this Government will always be ready by arrangement to see Members of this House, as is their duty. Naturally, it has always been and must remain the practice that Ministers should have some discretion over deputations."

Mr. Orme

That is exactly what he said.

Mr. Ross

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it right that the most important Bill with which the Scots have had to deal for the past 50 years is to be dealt with by the smallest Committee for 50 years? Would he have regard to his pledges from that Box about the size being related to the importance?

Mr. Whitelaw

I did not know that the fact which the right hon. Gentleman mentions was a fact. He says that is going to happen. I did not know that it was going to happen. That again is a matter for the Committee of Selection. As to my pledges, certainly I will have regard to them.

Mr. Kaufman

On a point of order. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that, when we had the last recess, a great deal of inconvenience was caused to hon. Members who had the Adjournment debates on the last day, because the Motion for the Adjournment was taken on the same day and those debates were pushed out. Would it be possible for us to have some assurance before the next business statement about the date of the Motion for the recess, so that hon. Members' Adjournment Motions are not interfered with?

Mr. Whitelaw

I took note of the criticisms on the last occasion that I was doing it much too late, so I am making arrangements nit to do that again.

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps it will help the House if I say now that, for the debate on Wednesday, 15th December, on the second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, hon. Members may hand in to my office by 9.30 on the morning of Tuesday, 14th December, their names and the topics which they wish to raise. The ballot will be carried out as on the last occasion. Hon. Members may hand in only their own names and topics.

May I also remind the House that this Consolidated Fund Bill contains the Civil Vote on Account, so hon. Members may raise any questions of policy or administration arising out of the Civil Estimates. The Bill also makes provision to cover the Defence Supplementary Estimates set out in House of Commons Paper No. 7. The opportunity of raising defence topics is restricted to the particulars contained in those Supplementary Estimates. I shall put out the result of the ballot as soon as I can on Tuesday, 14th December.