HC Deb 14 May 1969 vol 783 cc1534-55

Again considered in Committee.

Question again proposed, That the Amendment be made.

Mr. K. Robinson

I was saying that the argument that all sales or leases of owner-occupied dwelling-houses should be exempt from the betterment levy has been raised on a number of occasions. The reasons against this are set out in paragraph 8 of the White Paper. I think that much of the pressure for this change is based on a misconception of the scope as well as the purpose of the levy.

In normal circumstances there is no development value realised on the sale or lease of a dwelling-house. The figures illustrate this very well. In the first two years of the Land Commission's operations, even without the modifications now being introduced, there has been a liability to levy in only about 1,000 cases of the sale or lease of private dwelling-houses where the house itself was being sold. This compares with hundreds of thousands of sales of houses each year. It can be seen, therefore, that betterment levy does not normally apply on the sale of a house which is to continue to be used as a house.

Where the levy was intended to apply, and will still apply, is where substantial development value is being realised. There is no reason why a large house in extensive grounds sold at a high profit, perhaps for demolition and the building of blocks of flats, should not be liable for levy just because it is owner-occupied. There have been many such cases in urban areas where large sums of development value have been realised, and there is no case whatever for exempting such cases on any general argument for giving protection to owner-occupiers of residential property.

It has nothing to do with encouraging or discouraging home ownership. What the levy is doing is taxing a windfall gain which has resulted from the actions of the community, which is quite unconnected with the fact that property sold may have been owner-occupied at the time of the sale. The usual arguments about the need to encourage home ownership and to provide tax relief for home owners therefore do not apply to the very small group of owner-occupiers who are profiting from realising development value on the sale of their houses.

What the Government have done in this Clause is to deal with the marginal cases. The exemption of sales of market value of £1,500 or less has provided an exemption for owner-occupiers selling off parts of their garden below this figure. This Clause helps the case of the small and medium-sized house which is being sold and where, although perhaps it is being sold for continued use as a house, there is a small amount of development value in the sale.

The case of Mr. Dutt has been quoted again. I hope that the hon. Member for Worcester will join me in urging Mr. Dutt to negotiate with the district valuer, because the facts of the case are not quite as simple as they have been published. It may turn out that in the end no levy is payable. I understand that Mr. Dutt has sold the house to a small developer. I know it is said that there is no prospect of immediate development, but, nevertheless, the district valuer has issued a preliminary view, and I suggest that negotiations should now take place.

Mr. Murton

The right hon. Member mentioned the phrase "windfall gain". How would that affect my Mr. Wright, from Waltham Abbey, who was virtually forced out of his house?

Mr. Robinson

I took the hon. Members' complaint on that issue to be more against the law of compulsory purchase than against betterment levy. Perhaps it was against a combination of the two. Anyhow, under the Clause, providing that the residence does not exceed one quarter of an acre in extent and £10,000 in value there is no liability to levy unless the development value element exceeds the current use value by the 20 per cent. margin rather than the normal 10 per cent. A man with a house with a current use value of £8,000 who sells it at £9,500—the difference being due to planning permission, or the prospect of it; using the house as an office, or even building another house in the garden—will now have no betterment levy to pay on the sale, because the sale price will be on the higher base value which the Clause provides.

We think that the two provisions together will effectively deal with the small marginal cases of development value realised by owner-occupiers. For the reasons that I have given there is no cause for complete exemption for owner-occupiers, and I ask the House to reject the Amendment.

Mr. Graham Page

If the house owner is exempt from capital gains tax on the sale of his house, what logical, moral, social or fiscal justification can there be for imposing betterment levy when he sells the house? The liability is still retained by the Bill, although it professes to make a concession. All it does is to make the sale or lease of a home better for the levy payer than would be the case if he were selling any other property by 40 per cent. of a sum equal to one-fifth of the current use value of the home. That is the sort of complication which seems to delight the Ministry but infuriates the public. It does nothing for the marginal case. Consider what it costs in administration—and to what end? Suppose that we exempted all these cases—there were only 1,000 of them over two years.

This, from the Minister's own mouth, is the strongest support for the Amendment and for removing the home entirely from the threat of the levy.

Mr. Costain

I want to make only one point. The Minister does not yet seem to appreciate the effect of the levy on owner-occupier houses. Cannot he appreciate that when there is a risk of a levy the vendor will add this to the price? I do not want to quote cases of old-age pensioners, or other people who will suffer hardship; I merely refer to it as a straightforward commercial proposition. When a person is about to sell his house he wants to know whether or not it will be subject to levy.

Division No. 216.] AYES [10.9 p.m.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Farr, John Lubbock, Eric
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Fortescue, Tim Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)
Astor, John Foster, Sir John Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) McMaster, Stanley
Awdry, Daniel Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) McNair-Wilson, Michael
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Glover, Sir Douglas McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Maddan, Martin
Balniel, Lord Goodhart, Philip Maginnis, John E.
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Goodhew, Victor Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest
Batsford, Brian Gower, Raymond Marten, Neil
Bell, Ronald Grant, Anthony Mawby, Ray
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Grant-Ferris, R. Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Hall, John (Wycombe) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
Berry, Hn. Anthony Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Biffen, John Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Black, Sir Cyril Harrison, Brian (Maldon) More, Jasper
Blaker, Peter Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Body, Richard Hastings, Stephen Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Hawkins, Paul Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Brewis, John Hay, John Murton, Oscar
Brinton, Sir Tatton Heald, Rt. Hn Sir Lionel Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Heseltine, Michael Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Higgins, Terence L. Nott, John
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Hiley, Joseph Osborn, John (Hallam)
Bullus, Sir Eric Hill, J. E. B. Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) Holland Philip Page, Graham (Crosby)
Chichester-Clark, R. Hooson, Emlyn Page, Jonn (Harrow, W.)
Clark, Henry Hordern, Peter Pardoe, John
Clegg, Walter Hornby, Richard Percival, Ian
Cooke, Robert Hunt, John Pike, Miss Mervyn
Corfield, F. V. Hutchison, Michael Clark Pink, R. Bonner
Costain, A. P. Iremonger, T. L. Pounder, Rafton
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Crouch, David Jopling, Michael Price, David (Eastleigh)
Currie, G. B. H. Kershaw, Anthony Prior, J. M. L.
Dalkeith, Earl of Kimball, Marcus Pym, Francis
Dance, James King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) Kitson, Timothy Rees-Davies, W. R.
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Knight, Mrs. Jill Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Lane, David Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Drayson, G. B. Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Ridsdale, Julian
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Emery, Peter Longden, Gilbert Royle, Anthony

The Minister goes on quoting figures saying that X number are not subject to levy—but who knows that they are not? The public are now convinced that the Government will take every ounce of cash they possibly can, and they will not sell their houses. I know of two cases where houses have been kept vacant. If the Minister will not accept the Amendment, will he accept the alternative, and provide that anybody who is about to sell his house can go to the Land Commission and obtain a certificate to the effect that development levy will not be charged? Will that give him a better idea of the way in which to increase house availability? This Government have made such a mess of the housing programme that they should do something to improve it.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 165, Noes 215.

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Tilney, John Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Silvester, Frederick Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. Wiggin, A. W.
Sinclair, Sir George van Straubenzee, W. R. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Smith, John (London & W'minster) Waddington, David Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Speed, Keith Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) Woodnutt, Mark
Steel, David (Roxburgh) Walker, Peter (Worcester) Wright, Esmond
Stodart, Anthony Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek Wylie, N. R.
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. Walters, Dennis
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) Ward, Dame Irene TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) Weatherill, Bernard Mr. Reginald Eyre and
Temple, John M. Wells, John (Maidstone) Mr. Hector Monro.
Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Ginsburg, David Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Alldritt, Walter Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Anderson, Donald Gregory, Arnold Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Archer, Peter Grey, Charles (Durham) Mapp, Charles
Ashley, Jack Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Marquand, David
Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Mendelson, John
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Hamling, William Mikardo, Ian
Barnett, Joel Hannan, William Millan, Bruce
Beaney, Alan Harper, Joseph Miller, Dr. M. S.
Bence, Cyril Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Bidwell, Sydney Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Binns, John Hattersley, Roy Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Bishop, E. S. Hazell, Bert Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Heffer, Eric S. Morris, John (Aberavon)
Booth, Albert Henig, Stanley Moyle, Roland
Boston, Terence Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Neal, Harold
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Hilton, W. S. Newens, Stan
Brooks, Edwin Hooley, Frank Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Horner, John Ogden, Eric
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Oram, Albert E.
Buchan, Norman Hoy, James Orbach, Maurice
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Huckfield, Leslie Orme, Stanley
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Oswald, Thomas
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Cant, R. B. Hughes, Roy (Newport) Padley, Walter
Carmichael, Neil Hunter, Adam Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Hynd, John Paget, R. T.
Conlan, Bernard Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Palmer, Arthur
Crawshaw, Richard Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Park, Trevor
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Crossman, Rt. Hn, Richard Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Pavitt, Laurence
Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Judd, Frank Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kelley, Richard Price, William (Rugby)
Delargy, Hugh Kenyon, Clifford Robert's, Albert (Normanton)
Dell, Edmund Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)
Dempsey, James Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P's'as)
Dewar, Donald Lawson, George Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Leadbitter, Ted Roebuck, Roy
Dickens, James Lee, Rt. Hn, Frederick (Newton) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Driberg, Tom Lee, John (Reading) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Dunnett, Jack Lestor, Miss Joan Sheldon, Robert
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Eadie, Alex Loughlin, Charles Silverman, Julius
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Luard, Evan Skeffington, Arthur
Ellis, John Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Slater, Joseph
English, Michael Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Small, William
Ensor, David McBride, Neil Spriggs, Leslie
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) McCann, James Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Fernyhough, E. MacColl, James Taverne, Dick
Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) MacDermot, Niall Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) McGuire, Michael Thornton, Ernest
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McKay, Mrs. Margaret Tinn, James
Ford, Ben Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Tuck, Raphael
Forrester, John Mackintosh, John P. Urwin, T. W.
Fowler, Gerry McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Varley, Eric G.
Fraser, John (Norwood) McNamara, J. Kevin Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Freeson, Reginald MacPherson, Malcolm
Gardner, Tony Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster) Whitlock, William Winnick, David
Wallace, George Wilkins, W. A. Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Watkins, David (Consett) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) Woof, Robert
Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Wellbeloved, James Williams, W. T. (Warrington) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
White, Mrs. Eirene Willis, Rt. Hn. George Mr. Ioan L. Evans and
Mr. Ernest G. Perry.
Mr. Rossi

I beg to move Amendment No. 19, in page 55, line 5, leave out '£10,000' and insert '£15,000'.

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Ronald Russell)

I suggest that it would be convenient for the Committee to discuss, at the same time the following Amendments: Nos. 20, 21, 22, 26, 27 and 29.

Mr. Rossi

That is convenient, Sir Ronald, since the object of this group of Amendments is to extend the number of cases covered by the meagre concession provided by the Clause to include all houses of a value of £15,000 or less.

I call in aid the arguments which were used earlier about the regional differences that exist in house prices. The figure of £10,000 may cover the small and medium-type of house to which the Minister wishes to give this concession in various parts of the country, such as the Midlands and the North-East, but when one considers house prices in the South-East, where values are appreciably greater, one sees that £15,000 would be more equitable.

For example, one need only think of the Highgate part of the Minister's constituency. I am not sure that £15,000 would go far in the Fitzroy Farm area. The owners of houses there would no doubt feel justified to have this exemption extended, particularly when one compares the type of house that they would be selling with an identical house in another part of the country.

A strong case exists for a differential. Perhaps the Minister has not yet considered this aspect. If justice is to be done between different parts of the country, he should increase the figure from £10,000 to at least £15,000 and so help the people in the South-East.

Mr. K. Robinson

The hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) referred to my constituency and, in doing so, chose the most expensive part of it. I assure him that even in my constituency there are large areas where houses sell regularly for sums substantially below £10,000.

In tabling this series of Amendments to the £10,000 limit hon. Gentlemen opposite have overlooked the fact that it is not a question of either getting relief under the Clause or getting no relief at all. The Clause increases the addition to current use value allowed in the calculation of base value from 10 per cent. to 20 per cent. The 10 per cent. addition, to which the Opposition have not paid sufficient attention, already provides a substantial measure of relief.

On the current use value aspect, already there must be a 10 per cent. increase before there is any liability to levy. On a house with a current use value of £12,000 and a market value of £15,000 the 10 per cent. addition reduces the net development value from £3,000 to £1,800 and the levy from the £1,200 which it would have been without that provision to £720.

Are hon. Gentlemen opposite suggesting that in the circumstances any further relief is needed? Indeed, they are suggesting the giving of more relief, not because there is any argument in equity for such relief but because they oppose the levy in principle. I must, therefore, ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

The Government's intention has been to give some relief to owner-occupiers of small and medium-sized residential properties. The limitations set out in the White Paper and reproduced in Clause 38 have been carefully considered. The figure of £10,000 was chosen to cover an area in which the existing provisions have given rise to some difficulty. Again, I think that the limit is fairly generous where a high price is obtained for a house. An owner-occupier who has the benefit of the existing 10 per cent. addition for current use value and who then retains 60 per cent. of the development value which is realised can hardly be said to be suffering hardship.

Mr. Graham Page

In dealing with the previous Amendment, the Minister used that extraordinary argument in paragraph 8 of the White Paper about large houses with extensive grounds. That argument applies to this Amendment rather than to the last Amendment—that houses selling at our figure of between £10,000 and £15,000 are all large houses with extensive grounds sold at high profits. That is not so. The £10,000 house of today is the £7,000 house of a few years ago, and the £15,000 house of today is the £10,000 house of a few years ago.

I judge this by experience as director of a building society. Building societies are allowed to advance one-tenth of their annual advances on houses of £10,000 or more, and the building societies always try to make the advance of one-tenth of their annual advances on that type of house. One can therefore say that an

Division No. 217.] AYES [10.26 p.m.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Grant-Ferris, R. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Hall, John (Wycombe) Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Astor, John Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Murton, Oscar
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Awdry, Daniel Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Nott, John
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Hastings, Stephen Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian
Balniel, Lord Hawkins, Paul Osborn, John (Hallam)
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Hay, John Page, Graham (Crosby)
Batsford, Brian Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Bell, Ronald Heseltine, Michael Pardoe, John
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Higgins, Terence L. Percival, Ian
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Hiley, Joseph Pike, Miss Mervyn
Berry, Hn. Anthony Hill, J. E. B. Pink, R. Bonner
Biffen, John Holland, Philip Pounder, Rafton
Black, Sir Cyril Hooson, Emlyn Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Blaker, Peter Hordern, Peter Price, David (Eastleigh)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Hornby, Richard Prior, J. M. L.
Body, Richard Hunt, John Pym, Francis
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Hutchison, Michael Clark Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Brinton, Sir Tatton Iremonger, T. L. Rees-Davies, W. R.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Jopling, Michael Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Kershaw, Anthony Ridsdale, Julian
Bullus, Sir Eric Kimball, Marcus Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Royle, Anthony
Chichester-Clark, R. Kitson, Timothy Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Clark, Henry Knight, Mrs. Jill Silvester, Frederick
Clegg, Walter Lane, David Sinclair, Sir George
Cooke, Robert Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Corfield, F. V. Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Costain, A. P. Longden, Gilbert Speed, Keith
Crouch, David Lubbock, Eric Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Currie, G. B. H. Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Cromt'y) Stodart, Anthony
Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Dalkeith, Earl of McMaster, Stanley Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Dance, James McNair-Wilson, Michael (W'stow E.) Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Temple, John M.
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Maddan, Martin Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Drayson, G. B. Maginnis, John E. Tilney, John
Emery, Peter Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Farr, John Marten, Neil van Straubenzee, W. R.
Fortescue, Tim Mawby, Ray Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Foster, Sir John
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Waddington, David
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Glover, Sir Douglas Mills, Peter (Torrington) Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Goodhart, Philip Monro, Hector Walters, Dennis
Goodhew, Victor More, Jasper Ward, Dame Irene
Gower, Raymond Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Weatherill, Bernard
Grant, Anthony Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Wells, John (Maidstone)

average of 10 per cent. of building society advances is advanced on houses of £10,000 or more. To ignore that fact and keep the figure at £10,000 as the limit in the Bill is nonsense.

The reality is that if we are to give any sort of concession to the ordinary range of family dwelling-houses, and particularly those in the South-East, the figure should go up to £15,000. The Minister's arguments over this Clause, as over the last Clause, put him, to mix it all up, in the category of Alice in Wonderland living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 161, Noes 214.

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Wiggin, A. W. Woodnutt, Mark TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Wright, Esmond Mr. R. W. Elliot and
Winstanley, Dr. M. P. Wylie, N. R. Mr. Reginald Eyre.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hamling, William Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Alldritt, Walter Hannan, William Morris, John (Aberavon)
Archer, Peter Harper, Joseph Moyle, Roland
Ashley, Jack Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Neal, Harold
Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Newens, Stan
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Hattersley, Roy Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Hazell, Bert Ogden, Eric
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Heffer, Eric S. Oram, Albert E.
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Henig, Stanley Orbach, Maurice
Barnett, Joel Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Orme, Stanley
Beaney, Alan Hilton, W. S. Oswald, Thomas
Bence, Cyril Hooley, Frank Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Bidwell, Sydney Horner, John Padley, Walter
Binns, John Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Bishop, E. S. Hoy, James Paget, R. T.
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Huckfield, Leslie Palmer, Arthur
Booth, Albert Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Park, Trevor
Boston, Terence Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Hughes, Roy (Newport) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Brooks, Edwin Hunter, Adam Pavitt, Laurence
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Hynd, John Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Buchan, Norman Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Carmichael, Neil Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Price, William (Rugby)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Conlan, Bernard Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Richard, Ivor
Crawshaw, Richard Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Judd, Frank Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Kelley, Richard Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Kenyon, Clifford Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)
Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Roebuck, Roy
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Lawson, George Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Leadbitter, Ted Sheldon, Robert
Delargy, Hugh Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Dell, Edmund Lee, John (Reading) Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Dempsey, James Lestor, Miss Joan Silverman, Julius
Dewar, Donald Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham. N.) Skeffington, Arthur
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Slater, Joseph
Dickens, James Lipton, Marcus Small, William
Driberg, Tom Loughlin, Charles Spriggs, Leslie
Dunnett, Jack Luard, Evan Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Taverne, Dick
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Eadie, Alex McCann, John Thornton, Ernest
Edwards, William (Merioneth) MacColl, James Tinn, James
Ellis, John MacDermot, Niall Tuck, Raphael
English, Michael McGuire, Michael Urwin, T. W.
Ensor, David McKay, Mrs. Margaret Varley, Eric G.
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Mackie, John Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Fernyhough, E. Mackintosh, John P. Wallace, George
Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) McNamara, J. Kevin Watkins, David (Consett)
Fletcher, Raymond Ilkeston) MacPherson, Malcolm Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Wellbeloved, James
Ford, Ben Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Whitaker, Ben
Forrester, John Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) White, Mrs. Eirene
Fowler, Gerry Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Whitlock, William
Fraser, John (Norwood) Mapp, Charles Wilkins, W. A.
Freeson, Reginald Marquand, David Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Gardner, Tony Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Ginsburg, David Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Winnick, David
Gregory, Arnold Mendelson, John Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Grey, Charles (Durham) Mikardo, Ian Woof, Robert
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Millan, Bruce
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Miller, Dr. M. S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Mr. Neil McBride and
Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Mr. Ernest G. Perry.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Mr. Kenneth Baker (Acton)

I beg to move, Amendment No. 60, in page 55, line 16, at end insert: This paragraph will also apply if the grantor is a body of trustees whose only asset is a single private residence occupied by a life tenant or other person with a permanent right of occupation, and where the residence is compulsorily purchased. I believe that it would be testing the wells of compassion of the Committee if hon. Members heard about many more hardship cases caused by the betterment levy, but the Minister should be compelled to listen to them for two hours every morning between 10 and 12 o'clock. If he had to suffer that he would realise that it is no good talking about reforming or alleviating the levy, and that what is wanted is simply its abolition.

I shall argue the Amendment not on grounds of hardship but equity. It seeks to extend the relief the Clause gives to owner-occupied houses to houses which are in the next category. By that I mean the case where the husband has died and has left his house not directly to his wife but in trust for her for her life, and she lives in it as a life tenant. This is not an elaborate way of evading estate duty, but more and more houses are being left in this way.

Such a house is not covered by the Clause, and the following circumstances can arise, and have arisen. Where the widow takes up residence as a life tenant, the trustees would not normally have to sell the property, because she would live in it for the rest of her life. But when the property is to be compulsorily purchased liability to betterment levy may arise.

A case has been sent to me of a widow in Hounslow who is a life tenant of her family house, left to her by her husband. The trust owns only that house; it has no other money, and as a result the house is falling into disrepair. The Hounslow Borough Council wants to buy the property for the purposes of a playing field scheme, and the compulsory purchase order has been granted. The council is prepared to pay £7,500 for the house, which is the development value, but, because the house is in such a bad state of repair for the reason I stated, the current use value is about £5,000.

There is here an anomaly, or, worse than that, an injustice. A property is to be compulsorily purchased. There is no improvement, no development, no betterment of any kind, but there is no relief. There will be a charge to betterment levy in this case of about £400 payable by this woman. The Government accept that cases of this sort should have a measure of relief, for that is the main principle behind Clause 38, but there is no relief when the house is held in trust.

My Amendment is not an attempt to make a loophole in the Clause. It is a genuine attempt to give relief in cases of real inequity. There must be many people in circumstances similar to those I have described. Many family houses are now held in trust for the surviving wife. When any such house is liable to be compulsorily purchased for any purpose, a charge to betterment levy may arise. I propose the Amendment to iron out the anomaly and eliminate an injustice.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport (Knutsford)rose

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Sir W. Bromley-Davenport

I had not intended to intervene at this stage, though I had it in mind, perhaps, to speak to the Question on the Clause as a whole. I have one word to say to all my hon. Friends on this side—[HON. MEMBERS: "And on this side."]—yes, I have quite a lot of hon. Friends on the Government side, too.

I pay tribute to the excellent speech just made by my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Kenneth Baker), but I warn all my hon. Friends that it is an absolute waste of time talking about hardship cases to the concrete lobby-fodder opposite. There is only one hardship case with which they are concerned. [An HON. MEMBER: "And that is you."] All right. Here is an in-swinger on the middle stump. The only hardship case with which they are concerned is the £3,250 which they will lose at the next election when they are turned out of office.

Mr. K. Robinson

The whole Committee was delighted to watch that short innings on a concrete pitch.

When I first saw this Amendment on the Paper, I was somewhat mystified, because it seemed to me that it sought to amend the Bill to cover the narrowest conceivable category of case. I then had some researches done, and I found that there was the case to which the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Kenneth Baker) referred, which, clearly, had led him to put the Amendment down. His constituents are, obviously, worried about the possibility of having to pay levy. My information is that, despite what he has said, the district valuer has not yet reported on the case, and it is not yet known whether any liability to levy will be revealed. Should it be revealed, then, I think, it is a case which the Land Commission itself would wish to look at.

As to the Amendment itself, the provisions of Clause 38 are intended to apply solely to owner-occupiers. Although there are, I agree, certain special features in the particular case to which the hon. Gentleman referred, I do not think that it would be appropriate to amend the Bill to cover this very narrow category. Generally, we must equate trustees with landlords rather than with owner-occupiers. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Certainly, yes.

10.45 p.m.

Once we go beyond the owner-occupiers we are in a very difficult area, and for that reason I am afraid that I cannot accept the Amendment notwithstanding that this particular case is one which I am sure the Commission will want to look at carefully should it appear that levy is payable when the district valuer has reported.

Mr. Peter Walker

I had hoped that this very reasonable Amendment, covering a very narrow range of people would be acceptable. I am surprised that the Minister opposes the Amendment on the ground that the specific constituency case raised may not result in a levy being made. The principle is exactly the same, and it is an important one. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to look at this again between now and Report.

Dame Irene Ward

The Minister seemed to take exception to the fact that this relates only to a very narrow group of cases. This does not appeal to me. I thought we tried to see that justice was done to everyone. I do not believe that the Minister has had proper legal advice on this question. We should be very careful to consider the minority. I thought that we were proud of our record in doing just that. It is like that ridiculous mistake of the Secretary of State for Social Services, who did not realise that nurses have cups of tea and coffee. This has not been properly considered.

The Minister did not realise that this kind of thing can happen. No one really understands the problems of the widows, and it is important that the position of widows, who suffer a great deal, should be taken into account whether by a Conservative or Socialist Government. Here is an opportunity to do something. The Minister should have more legal advice on this matter. There must be plenty of lawyers in Government service—we need a lot to protect the interests of the people.

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Ronald Russell)

Order. The hon. Lady must speak to the Amendment.

Dame Irene Ward

Only lawyers can find out these things. Someone has to protect the public from the Minister. Only lawyers know whether the rules of a Department are being transgressed Ordinary people like myself, and widows do not know whether they are being properly treated because they are not legally minded. It is tremendously important, therefore, to know whether we have sufficient lawyers, not that I want to stand up for them—

The Temporary Chairman

Order. I must ask the hon. Lady not to labour the point. The Amendment is a very narrow one.

Dame Irene Ward

It does not matter whether it is a narrow Amendment or not—

The Temporary Chairman

But it does.

Dame Irene Ward

We are talking about a broad principle. I object that in the House of Commons we eliminate everybody who does not come within a broad principle. Everybody has a right to protection and consideration in the House of Commons. That is my theory, and I will stand up for it until I am dead.

I want to know why the Minister should take such exception to the fact that it is only a narrow case. Whatever the case, he should accept it if it is proved, as I am sure it will be, because my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Kenneth Baker) would not have moved it if he was not right. This is simply a new way for the Minister to use his charming approach, but charm is not everything in government.

Mr. Maurice Orbach (Stockport, South)

Do not say that.

Dame Irene Ward

It is another charming way of trying to get out of the responsibilities which have been put forward during the whole debate on this part of the Finance Bill, or whatever it is.

I want the Minister, please, to explain why he took the line he did and talked about it being only a small section of the community. Every constituent of mine has as much right to consideration as he has.

Mr. K. Robinsonrose

Mr. John Page (Harrow, West)

It is essential that the Minister gives us an undertaking to look at the Amendment again.

Mr. Robinson

I was endeavouring to respond to the request of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker). Before doing so, may I say to the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) that, of course, I agree that small categories—and, indeed, individuals—are entitled to the protection of the House of Commons. The only point I was making was that protection need not always take the form of legislation. I did not take exception to the tabling of the Amendment or anything that the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Kenneth Baker) said. I merely made some observations.

In the light of what the hon. Member for Worcester has said, of course I will consider what has been said before Report—he will understand, without commitment. This is a complicated matter, however, and certainly I will have another look at it.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

In view of what the Minister has said and the consideration which he has undertaken to give, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Peter Walker

I beg to move Amendment No. 23, in page 55, line 34, leave out '1969' and insert '1967'.

The Temporary Chairman

With this Amendment we are taking also Amendment No. 30, in page 56, line 14, leave out '1969' and insert '1967', and Amendment No. 69, in page 56, line 14, at end add: (3) To the extent that levy has been paid which would not have been payable had this section been in operation on and since 6th April 1967, a sum equal to the amount of such payment shall be repaid to the payer or his personal representative with interest thereon from the date of such payment to the date of such repayment at the rate prescribed for the purpose of this section by the Treasury.

Mr. Walker

Amendment No. 23, which is similar to an Amendment which was discussed earlier today, proposes that those who have paid the levy but who would not have paid it had this concession been made should have the money returned to them. I have no hope whatever that the Minister will accept the Amendment. Throughout the day he has persisted in his view that those who have already suffered hardship should continue to suffer hardship. I have no doubt that he will want them to continue suffering hardship by opposing the Amendment.

As this is probably the final Amendment to be taken on the Clause, may I say that we have tried throughout the day to ensure that a few concessions that the Government have made should be extended to those who have already suffered. The Government have refused to concede the point. Throughout the day our belief and arguments have been reinforced, and certainly we stick to our firm pledge that at the earliest opportunity we will abolish the Land Commission and all its work.

Mr. K. Robinson

The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) fully recognises that the case for retrospection in this instance, whatever it was on the earlier Amendment, is a great deal weaker. He spoke about hardship, but this is not an Amendment for the relief of hardship; it is an Amendment to relieve certain types of owner-occupiers from the payment of levy. Certainly hardship is not the main consideration which led the Government to make the provisions of Clause 38. However, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, having resisted retrospection on the earlier Amendment, I could not advise the Committee to accept it on this.

Division No. 218.] AYES [10.55 p.m.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Page, Graham (Crosby)
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Astor, John Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Pardoe, John
Awdry, Daniel Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Percival, Ian
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Hastings, Stephen Pike, Miss Mervyn
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Hawkins, Paul Pink, R. Bonner
Balniel, Lord Hay, John Pounder, Rafton
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Heseltine, Michael Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Batsford, Brian Higgins, Terence L Price, David (Eastleigh)
Bell, Ronald Hiley, Joseph Prior, J. M. L.
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Hill, J. E. B. Pym, Francis
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Holland, Philip Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Berry, Hn. Anthony Hooson, Emlyn Rees-Davies, W. R.
Biffen, John Hordern, Peter Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Black, Sir Cyril Hornby, Richard Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Blaker, Peter Hunt, John Ridsdale, Julian
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Iremonger, T. L. Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Body, Richard Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Royle, Anthony
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Jopling, Michael Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Brewis, John Kershaw, Anthony Silvester, Frederick
Brinton, Sir Tatton Kimball, Marcus Sinclair, Sir George
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Kitson, Timothy Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Knight, Mrs. Jill Speed, Keith
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Lane, David Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Stodart, Anthony
Chichester-Clark, R. Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Clark, Henry Longden, Gilbert Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Clegg, Walter Lubbock, Eric Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Cooke, Robert Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) Temple, John M.
Corfield, F. V. Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Costain, A. P. McNair-Wilson, Michael (W'stow, E.) Tilney, John
Crouch, David McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Currie, G. B. H. Maddan, Martin van Straubenzee, W. R.
Dalkeith, Earl of Maginnis, John E. Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Dance, James Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Waddington, David
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Marten, Neil Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Mawby, Ray Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Drayson, G. B. Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Walters, Dennis
Emery, Peter Mills, Peter (Torrington) Ward, Dame Irene
Eyre, Reginald Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Weatherill, Bernard
Wells, John (Maidstone)
Farr, John Monro, Hector Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Fortescue, Tim More, Jasper Wiggin, A. W.
Foster, Sir John Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Glover, Sir Douglas Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Murton, Oscar Woodnutt, Mark
Goodhart, Philip Nicholls, Sir Harmar Wylie, N. R.
Goodhew, Victor Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Gower, Raymond Nott, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Grant-Ferris, R. Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian Mr. Humphrey Atkins and
Hall, John (Wycombe) Osborn, John (Hallam) Mr. Anthony Grant.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Bray, Dr. Jeremy Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)
Alldritt, Walter Brooks, Edwin Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Archer, Peter Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)
Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Buchan, Norman Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Delargy, Hugh
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Dell, Edmund
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Cant, R. B. Dempsey, James
Barnett, Joel Carmichael, Neil Dewar, Donald
Bence, Cyril Carter-Jones, Lewis Diamond, Rt. Hn. John
Bidwell, Sydney Conlan, Bernard Dickens, James
Binns, John Crawshaw, Richard Driberg, Tom
Bishop, E. S. Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Dunnett, Jack
Booth, Albert Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)
Boston, Terence Darling, Rt. Hn. George Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 159, Noes 211.

Eadie, Alex Lawson, George Pavitt, Laurence
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Leadbitter, Ted Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Ellis, John Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
English, Michael Lee, John (Reading) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Ensor, David Lestor, Miss Joan Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Fernyhough, E. Lipton, Marcus Price, William (Rugby)
Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) Loughlin, Charles Richard, Ivor
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Luard, Evan Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Ford, Ben McCann, John Robertson, John (Paisley)
Forrester, John MacColl, James Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)
Fowler, Gerry MacDermot, Niall Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Fraser, John (Norwood) McGuire, Michael Roebuck, Roy
Freeson, Reginald McKay, Mrs. Margaret Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Gardner, Tony Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Sheldon, Robert
Ginsburg, David Mackie, John Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Mackintosh, John P. Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Grey, Charles (Durham) McNamara, J. Kevin Silverman, Julius
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) MacPherson, Malcolm Skeffington, Arthur
Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Slater, Joseph
Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Small, William
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Spriggs, Leslie
Hamling, William Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Hannan, William Mapp, Charles Taverne, Dick
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Marquand, David Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Thornton, Ernest
Hattersley, Roy Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Tinn, James
Hazell, Bert Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Tomney, Frank
Heffer, Eric S. Mendelson, John Urwin, T. W.
Henig, Stanley Mikardo, Ian Varley, Eric G.
Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Millan, Bruce Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Hilton, W. S. Miller, Dr. M. S. Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Hooley, Frank Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Horner, John Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Wallace, George
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Watkins, David (Consett)
Hoy, James Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Huckfield, Leslie Morris, John (Aberavon) Wellbeloved, James
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Moyle, Roland Whitaker, Ben
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Neal, Harold White, Mrs. Eirene
Hunter, Adam Newens, Stan Whitlock, William
Hynd, John Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) Wilkins, W. A.
Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Ogden, Eric Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Oram, Albert E. Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Orbach, Maurice Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Orme, Stanley Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Oswald, Thomas Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) Winnick, David
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Padley, Walter Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)
Judd, Frank Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Woof, Robert
Kelley, Richard Paget, R. T.
Kenyon, Clifford Palmer, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) Park, Trevor Mr. Neil McBride and
Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Parker, John (Dagenham) Mr. Joseph Harper.
Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond)

I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again. We have had a full and useful day's debate and it is now an appropriate time to consider the next business.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.