HC Deb 06 May 1969 vol 783 cc278-81
Mr. Thorpe

Mr. Speaker, I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, that the House of Commons is being invited to vote for the Second Reading of a Bill the contents of which are not generally available to all Members of the House. The fact that this is an urgent matter need not occupy the House for more than a few moments. We know that the subject-matter which I seek to raise is down for debate in public business at the conclusion of this point of order and the Ministerial statement which preceded it. In my submission, there is no doubt that the matter is urgent.

The fact that it is definite has again been generally agreed, namely, that the subject-matter of the debate is not available in legislative form. In my submission, it is of no significance how many copies of the Bill were printed and distributed. The fact remains that hon. Members going to the Vote Office before the debate—and I was one of them—were not able to obtain copies. Therefore, whatever the views of any hon. Member, I hope that it will be generally agreed that the matter is definite and urgent.

The third and final limb on which I would have to succeed in asking you to rule in my favour is whether it is a matter of importance. I submit that a Finance Bill which seeks to raise large sums of money from the taxpayer is a matter of great importance.

Having been fortunate in obtaining a copy, not through the Vote Office, but by borrowing a file copy, perhaps I may read the Long Title of the Bill. It is: A Bill to grant certain duties, to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to the National Debt and the Public Revenue, and to make further provision in connection with Finance. It is historically accepted that one of the major reasons why the House of Commons found itself in conflict with King Charles I—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The right hon. Gentleman must not debate on his application for the S.O.9. He must not make the speech that he would make if he were granted the S.O.9.

Mr. Thorpe

With respect, I have no intention of doing so, Sir; I only seek to urge upon you that, on the basis of past precedents, the matter of public finance and the right of this House with full knowledge to vote these matters is of great constitutional significance.

One of the main reasons why King Charles I was involved in a great controversy with this House and lost his head was that he sought to raise money without reference to this House and by the exercise of the Prerogative. It was for that reason that the whole question of ship money caused Hampden and many other distinguished Parliamentarians to oppose it—

Mr. Speaker

With respect, I cannot question anything that the right hon. Gentleman has said. But he must submit his application for an S.O.9. The points that he is making would be quite in order in his speech if he got an S.O.9.

Mr. Thorpe

Mr. Speaker, I respectfully submit that, on the basis of past precedents, the House has attached very great importance to having the full rights of raising moneys for the public purse and for the public services and taking the opportunities of adequate debate. I will leave the historical precedents by saying that, so great was the importance, that Parliamentarians, in my view rightly, were prepared to engage in a civil war.

I move, then, to the present position. The Opposition are allowed to select certain matters for debate in the House on Supply days. Those matters are within their discretion on the basis that the House is not prepared to grant moneys without the remedy of grievances. That is why there is a green bag behind your Chair in which petitions may be lodged—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot at this stage have the whole of the constitutional struggles of the House of Commons. versus the Monarch and the apparatus of the House. The right hon. Gentleman is applying for an S.O.9. He must keep to his application.

Mr. Thorpe

I am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I can relieve you and the House, for I have now left historical precedents and I come to the present day.

Mr. Speaker, I respectfully adopt what you have said about it being without precedent for the House of Commons to be asked to give a Second Reading to a Finance Bill the contents of which are not generally available to hon. Members of the House of Commons. To use your own words, "It is not on the Table." It is only through the withholding of our vote for moneys that historically we have the right to seek the remedy of grievances of our constituents. This is the whole historical basis of this place.

Bearing in mind all the past precedents and the contemporaneous importance which we attach to the raising of moneys and taxation, we are being asked for the first time in the history of the House to give a Second Reading to a Finance Bill the contents of which are not generally available to hon. Members before the debate.

I repeat that no blame attaches to any of the officials of the House, and certainly no blame attaches to the Treasury Ministers who are responsible for this debate. I acquit them—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The right hon. Member is again drifting into the merits of the matter which he will be able to debate if he is granted an S.O.9.

Mr. Thorpe

I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to say that since it is certainly my view, which I respectfully adopt and endorse from you, that never before has the House been asked to give a Second Reading to a Finance Bill without the Bill being generally available, and bearing in mind the historical importance which this House attaches to the vote of moneys, we should have the right to adjourn the House under Standing Order No. 9 to debate these matters, and that, although it is not within my rights procedurally to suggest it, the whole of the debate should be adjourned until the Bill is available to all Members.

Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely, that the House of Commons is being invited to vote for the Second Reading of a Bill the contents of which are not generally available to all Members of the House. As the House knows, under revised Standing Order No. 9 Mr. Speaker is directed to take into account the several factors set out in the Order, but to give no reason for his decision.

I have given careful consideration to the representations made by the right hon. Member in his speech and to all that went before, but I have to rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the revised Standing Order. Therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Galbraith

On a point of order.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am not prepared to take points of order on my Ruling.