COMMISSIONS TO INQUIRE INTO PLANNING MATTERS AFFECTING SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND (Hansard, 11 June 1969)

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)
I think that it would be convenient to discuss at the same time Amendments 31, 32 and 39.

§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross)
I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Mr. Adam Hunter) asked what procedure would be followed if a local planning authority in the Border area wished to consider in its plan the interaction with its own land of land lying across the Border in England, and whether there would be joint consultation and arrangements between the planning authorities affected.
Local planning authorities have an obligation, under Clause 2(3)(b) to relate their proposals for development to proposals for development and use of land in neighbouring districts, in so far as these are likely to affect their own district, and where the neighbouring district lies across the Border, this could, I suppose, conveniently be secured by administrative arrangements. There is no need for an Amendment for that purpose, but, in the course of discussion of the point, the Minister of State accepted that there might be a case for providing that planning inquiry commissions, which are constituted under Clause 60, could look into matters affecting an area which straddled the Border or into matters of major importance to Scotland and England. He undertook to see whether suitable Amendments to the Bill should be prepared to meet this contingency. Having considered the point, we feel it desirable to make this Amendment. I am grateful to my hon. Friend and those who supported him for having raised this matter so persuasively.
The new Clause and the new Schedule provide for the setting up of a Joint Planning Inquiry Commission to inquire into matters of common interest to the two countries. Such a Commission would be constituted by the Secretary of State and the Minister of Housing and Local Government, acting jointly. It would have exactly the same powers and procedures concerning an area straddling the Border as a commission dealing with an area wholly in one country or the other.
1514 These provisions were approved for Scotland by the Standing Committee on 13th May and are based on precisely the same lines as the corresponding provisions applying to England and Wales. This means that as well as having special commissions to deal with matters of this kind in England and in Scotland, we can have a joint commission to deal with joint inquiries concerning both countries.
A commission of this type might look at, for example, proposals for the Solway barrage, a gas or oil pipe line, major tourist projects and other major developments affecting both England and Scotland. The Amendments which we are considering with the new Clause are purely consequential. I am sure that the House will agree that we are putting forward a desirable proposal.

§ Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries)
I welcome the new Clause, and since I spoke in Committee when the hon. Member for Dunfermline, Burghs (Mr. Adam Hunter) raised the matter originally, it might be helpful if I commented at this stage. "I his is an interesting proposal, although I doubt whether the Commission will be used on many occasions. Its services will be required only on major projects.
We in Scotland have a somewhat different legal system as well as a different financial structure from that of England. Perhaps there will be a closer relationship between the two once Wheatley and Maud have been digested by both Houses of Parliament.
I was interested, when reading the part of the Bill to which the new Clause will apply, to speculate what effect the Commission would have had on a project like the Solway barrage, which affects both Cumberland and Dumfriesshire. The Sol-way barrage concept has been investigated in a feasibility study established by the Secretary of State. Would this Commission have been called in on that project, had it been in existence?
We gather that the Commission will have power to investigate considerations relevant to it or technical and scientific aspects of anything that it considers to be relevant. It will be unnecessary for the Commission to duplicate the work done by a feasibility study and I hope that such duplication will not occur because that would only increase the time factor.
1515 While welcoming this proposal, I wish to place on record the friendly relations that exist between county councils on either side of the Border; for example, between Dumfries and Cumberland, no doubt between Berwick and Northumberland, and between Roxburgh and both Cumberland and Northumberland. Dumfries County Council meets Cumberland whenever a joint project is under consideration. This has particularly been the case over the A74 road from Glasgow to Carlisle. Indeed, there has been such close co-operation that the first one-and-a-half mile section into England is being built by Dumfries County Council because this is considered to be the best way of proceeding.
We are today speaking of major projects. How far down the line does the Secretary of State envisage the Commission operating? In other words, would its services have been used for this A74 project, which has already been discussed amicably? I trust that the right hon. Gentleman is thinking more of major projects like the Solway barrage and some of the regional surveys which have been carried out in Scotland in the last few years.
I regard the establishment of the Commission as a valuable insurance policy to be held in reserve lest there be disagreement between England and Scotland at county council level. For this reason it is a useful instrument which, though likely to be seldom needed, will be able to resolve outstanding difficulties speedily.

§ Mr. Adam Hunter (Dunfermline Burghs)
I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the careful consideration which he has given to the query which I raised in Committee. The new Clause covers exactly the point I had in mind and while not knowing a great deal about this part of the Border, I am sure that the proposed machinery is necessary and will prove ideal when local authorities on either side of the Border wish to have joint planning schemes.

§ Mr. N. R. Wylie (Edinburgh, Pentlands)
It is clear that the whole House welcomes the new Clause. This proposal is not only an innovation but a useful 1516 one, although the scope for its application is no doubt limited. Presumably it will apply only to major projects.
The Secretary of State referred to projects like oil pipeline. I understand that matters of that kind are dealt with under separate legislation and that they do not come within planning legislation. However, a project like the Solway barrage or similar developments in Berwick or Tweed would, no doubt, be instances of when the Commission would come into play.
Am I right in understanding that there is no necessity for consequential amendments to the English legislation on this subject? We are setting up a joint commission under the Bill and that will cover both countries. If amending legislation for England is not required, and since this innovation is being made through Scottish legislation, I trust that a substantial number of any enquiries that arise will be held in Scotland.

§ Mr. Ross
I understand there is no need to duplicate the legislation; and when moving the new Clause I explained the joint rôle of the Secretary of State and the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
This provision is a safeguard and can be considered an essential weapon in our planning armoury. I agree that it will not be used on every occasion. Indeed, first indications are, as my hon. Friend the Minister of State pointed out in Committee, that there are excellent relations between neighbouring authorities. As the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) pointed out, his county council, as agents of the Government, is doing the work on the first one-and-a-half miles into England of the A 74.
I regard this as an important new Clause because if a major scheme of development was under way and various considerations had to be borne in mind—land use on both sides of the Border and so on—a commission of this kind might be useful. I am obliged to hon. Members for the welcome they have given the new Clause.