HC Deb 10 June 1969 vol 784 cc1204-7
4. Mr. Gardner

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made with studies of labour-only contracting in the building and civil engineering industry.

32. Mr. Speed

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will now publish a White Paper outlining the terms of the Government's proposed legislation on contractual liability for self-employed building workers.

The Minister of Public Building and Works (Mr. John Silkin)

I am urgently considering these matters in consultation with my colleagues and I hope shortly to be in a position to make a statement.

Mr. Gardner

Will my right hon. Friend make this consideration as urgent as possible? Is he aware that many employers are avoiding their responsibilities to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and that the considerable growth in labour-only contracting is leading to a deterioration in standards in the building industry generally and in the conditions of those working in it?

Mr. Silkin

I am aware of those anxieties. The survey will be conducted with great dispatch.

Mr. Speed

Is the right hon. Gentle-man aware that it is also important to carry responsibile opinion in all parts of the industry with him? Could he consider the suggestion in my Question of a White Paper before legislation is introduced?

Mr. Silkin

The hon. Gentleman is quite right. It is important to consider the views of the industry, but the question of a White Paper is premature.

Mr. Heffer

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the building trade unions have given great consideration to this matter and are most anxious that legislation should be brought in at the earliest possible moment to deal with the iniquitous and scandalous operation of labour-only contracting at present?

Mr. Silkin

Yes, Sir. I am aware of the trade unions' point of view.

Mr. Chichester-Clark

Is not the right hon. Gentleman fully aware of the impact of the selective employment tax in this matter and that it is making such legislation so much more urgent?

Mr. Silkin

This problem antedated the selective employment tax. However, there are a number of Questions on the Order Paper on the taxation aspect and I do not wish to anticipate them.

34. Mr. Judd

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will now make a statement on the future of labour-only sub-contracting in private contracts with his Department.

Mr. John Silkin

No, Sir. Progress on this must be considered as part of the examination of the Phelps Brown Report now in hand. But tinder my Department's existing conditions of contract the use of all sub-contractors must be approved by the superintending officer who is warned about the dangers of using the self-employed type of labour-only sub-contractor and is instructed to avoid this wherever practicable.

Mr. Judd

I am obliged for that reply, but would my right hon. Friend agree that among his own labour force there are still widespread misgivings about tax irregularities, falling standards of workmanship and hidden subsidies enjoyed by private contracting firms of this kind as a result of using Ministry equipment? Could he give reassurances in this respect?

Mr. Silkin

I know that my hon Friend has pressed this point vigorously before. My instructions to my Department on this question have recently been strengthened, but we need to consider the whole of the Phelps Brown Report, and this is now in hand.

Mr. Ashton

Is my right hon. Friend aware that on a Yorkshire Television programme called "Calendar" last Thursday three labour-only sub-contractors openly admitted to drawing unemployment benefit while working as labour only sub-contractors? Would my right hon. Friend make an investigation to see whether these people were employed on Government contracts by tenderers who might be doing work for the Government?

Mr. Silkin

This matter has been investigated a good deal and it has been shown that they were not. But the fact that they made those remarks lends point to the need to discuss the whole question.

Mr. Costain

Does the Minister appreciate that S.E.T. is driving ordinary contractors to labour only sub-contracting?

Mr. Silkin

I do not think that that is a very good argument, and I am a little surprised by the hon. Gentleman's method of dealing with it. Clearly this is something which should be discouraged. Whatever blame is attached, it should not be done.