HC Deb 03 July 1969 vol 786 cc613-7
1. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the widespread evasion of the payment of car radio licence fees; and what steps he intends to take to reduce such evasion.

38. Mr. Alfred Morris

asked the Postmaster-General what consideration is being given by his Department to requiring motorists with car radios to display on their cars a disc indicating that an up-to-date radio licence has been obtained, with a view to enabling the British Broadcasting Corporation to realise its full licence income; and if he will make a statement.

The Postmaster-General (Mr. John Stonehouse)

I am aware of the widespread evasion, and I am considering a number of suggestions for dealing with the problem.

Mr. Hamilton

Is it the case that the licence fee is being evaded and in respect of no few than 1,200,000 out of about 2 million car radios in service, and that the B.B.C. is losing £1 million a year as a consequence? What steps has my right hon. Friend in mind for immediate remedial action to solve the problem?

Mr. Stonehouse

I cannot confirm the figures my hon. Friend quoted. My estimate shows that there are about 3 million sets in use and that there are about 2 million evaders. The problem is related to the anomaly that the licence fee does not have to be paid for a battery-operated set in a car whereas it must be paid for a radio installed in a car. I am examining the position.

Mr. Morris

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the B.B.C. could be spared at least some of its present worries over retrenchment if it were enabled to realise its full income, and that it is a matter of urgency, in the interests of the millions of people who pay their licence fees, that we should seriously consider ways of dealing with the problem?

Mr. Stonehouse

Yes, Sir. It is unfair to the great majority who pay their fees that a minority still get away with it. I am considering ways in which we can deal with this. There is a suggestion that the B.B.C. should receive the full hypothecated income. I think that there are grave objections to this proposal, but I am examining it.

Mr. Bryan

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the House spent much time debating the Wireless Telegraphy Act, much of which was aimed at reducing licence evasion? Will he give us a situation report on the extent to which the evasion position has improved since the passing of the Act?

Mr. Stonehouse

We have had a substantial success as regards T.V. sets. The number of fees paid has increased, and the number of evaders has been substantially reduced. I think we can say that that Act has been a great help to us in that job.

2. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the reasons for the delays in the provision of the necessary equipment and manpower to eliminate the avoidance of payment of radio and television licence fees.

Mr. Stonehouse

The new detector cars were slightly held up because of last minute technical problems and some delays in delivery of parts from sub-contractors. There have been problems also in recruiting staff.

Mr. Hamilton

Does my right hon. Friend think that it would be a worthwhile investment to improve wages and conditions, for instance, to attract additional staff, since the B.B.C. estimates that it is losing £7½ million a year as a result of this kind of evasion? Might not it be made clear to magistrates that the maximum fine allowed by the House is £50 for the first offence, while the average paid is £5, which is a gross misuse of their powers?

Mr. Stonehouse

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the last part of his supplementary question. As regards the first, I am considering ways in which the recruitment of staff can be increased, but I am now in a position to tell the House that I have decided to buy an additional 18 detector vans next year, which will help to improve the position.

Sir G. Nabarro

Will the right hon. Gentleman relate that additional provision of equipment and its capital cost to the huge loss of revenue in licence evasion which in an aggregation of television and radio licences now apparently runs to between £11 million and £12 million per annum?

Mr. Stonehouse

Yes, Sir. It is something that I am examining, because I am concerned to eliminate evasion as far as can be achieved. I am sure that the steps we propose to take will move us a great deal in that direction.

Mr. Bryan

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the time we were considering the Wireless Telegraphy Act I did a tour of about five post offices, and that it was my impression that the collection of licence fees was very much a non-priority job in a post office? It came well down the list of priorities. Does not he consider that this question should be examined to see whether it would not be better to have a staff confined to this one task?

Mr. Stonehouse

I am considering this suggestion among the others that have been made to me, but I can assure the House that there is no question of the collection of this fee being given low priority in the work we do.

9. Mr. Hunt

asked the Postmaster-General what is the current estimated number of television and radio licence evaders.

43. Mrs. Renée

Short asked the Postmaster-General how many persons he estimates are now evading payment of the licence fee for television and radio receivers.

44. Mr. Henig

asked the Postmaster-General what is his latest estimate of the number of persons evading payment of radio and television licences.

Mr. Stonehouse

I estimate that there are 1.2 million television licence evaders. There are no reliable estimates of the number of sound licence evaders.

Mr. Hunt

Is not this an alarming total of mean and selfish people in this country? Earlier the right hon. Gentleman said that he was proposing to bring 18 more detector cars into use. What will then be the total number of such cars in operation? Many of us feel that this is still the most effective form of persuasion in the matter.

Mr. Stonehouse

The number of evaders has been substantially reduced. Without the provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, the loss could have been as much as £18 million, but it has been kept down to £7½ million following the Act. The number of detector vans will be increased by 18 to 38.

Mrs. Renée Short

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if these people accepted their responsibilities there would be no talk about disbanding B.B.C. orchestras and depriving musicians of their livelihood? Will he consider making it obligatory for all people buying new television sets to produce a valid licence at the time of purchase and also request dealers to notify the Post Office of the people to whom sets have been sold, so that there would be immediately on record the names and addresses of those who have bought sets?

Mr. Stonehouse

I do not believe that the fact that there is licence evasion obviates the need for the B.B.C. to have some economy in the way it does its job. I believe also that the Act gives us sufficient powers. We obtain the names and addresses of all those buying new sets, and this enables us to root out a lot of evasion.

Mr. Henig

Parliament in its wisdom has voted to the B.B.C. the revenue from the licences on the assumption that everyone pays. If there is a shortfall of £7½ million, is it not grossly unfair that the B.B.C. should lose this money? Should not the full amount be handed over by the Government to the B.B.C. with the Treasury being made responsible, as is the case with other taxes, for dealing with evasion?

Mr. Stonehouse

I do not agree with that assumption. I do not think that it is guaranteed to the B.B.C. that it shall have the full income. But it is one of the proposals I am considering.