§ Q9. Mr. Roseasked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will introduce legislation to amend the Government of Ireland Act to remove control of the Royal Ulster Constabulary from the Northern Ireland Home Secretary; (2) what matters he intends to discuss in his forthcoming meeting with Captain O'Neill.
§ The Prime MinisterMy discussions with Captain O'Neill will cover all the main factors underlying the recent disturbances in Londonderry and all other relevant questions.
§ Mr. RoseWill my right hon. Friend bear in mind that in spite of his liberal intentions Captain O'Neill is a prisoner of his extremists in Northern Ireland? Will he make clear to Captain O'Neill that we at Westminster are prepared to legislate directly if necessary for Northern Ireland or to use financial subsidy to compel the restoration of civil rights to Northern Ireland?
§ The Prime MinisterI have on a number of occasions—and so have many of us—paid tribute to what Captain O'Neill has carried through in the way of liberalisation in the face of very great difficulties. I do not think anyone in this House is, however, satisfied with what has been done, and the feeling that he is being blackmailed by thugs putting pressure on him is something the House cannot accept.
§ Captain OrrIs the Prime Minister aware that the implications of Question Q9 constitute a slur upon what is probably the best and finest police force in the world and that such a slur is deeply resented in Ulster? Is he aware that people of good will of all parties and all creeds in Ulster who are working to try to bring about a better climate of community relations deeply deplore the sort of mischief-making involved in these Questions?
§ The Prime MinisterThose who have tabled these Questions and followed with supplementary questions have as great sincerity as the hon. and gallant Member. Without in any way seeking to trespass on the ground covered by the Government of Ireland Act, I say to the 1089 hon. and gallant Member that he is entitled to his view on the matter which he has just expressed. Up to now we have perhaps had to rely on the statement of himself and others on these matters. Since then we have had British television. [Interruption.]
§ Captain Orr rose—
§ Mr. MacDermot rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. MacDermot.
§ Captain Orr rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerI have called another hon. Member. The hon. and gallant Member has asked his question.
§ Captain OrrOn a point of order.
§ Mr. SpeakerI was waiting for that.
§ Captain OrrIn view of the despicable imputation of that last observation by the Prime Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. and gallant Member must give notice in the conventional way. Miss Joan Lestor. Question No. 10.
§ Mr. MacDermotOn a point of order. Did I mishear, Mr. Speaker, or did not you call me for a supplementary question?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is rather difficult. The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) was trying to raise a point of order. He was standing in his place for some time without saying "on a point of order". The hon. and gallant Gentleman then gave notice that he would raise the matter on the Adjournment. That closes it. Miss Joan Lestor.
§ Mr. MacDermotWas it not out of order for the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) to seek to raise such a point of order after you had called me for a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker?
§ Mr. SpeakerI think there is something in what the hon. and learned Gentleman says. Mr. Niall MacDermot.
§ Mr. MacDermotWill my right hon. Friend make it clear to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland when he meets him that there is growing concern in 1090 this country about the degree of discrimination in local government in Northern Ireland, and that, unless there is a very considerable improvement in the situation, pressure is bound to grow in this country for this Parliament to exercise its reserve powers under the Government of Ireland Act?
§ The Prime MinisterThis point was made when my right hon. Friend the then Home Secretary and I discussed this matter with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland and certain of his colleagues. I do not under-estimate the Prime Minister's difficulties, nor, indeed, the extent to which, for example, in the national franchise—the Parliamentary franchise—he has moved a long way ahead of a great deal of reactionary public opinion in his country. I know that it is his desire also to do that in local government. I do not under-estimate the difficulties, nor the impatience of my hon. Friends in this matter.
§ Mr. EllisOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a very contentious matter. To be subjected to the customary tactics of an hon. Gentleman rising to give notice that he will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment makes the position worse. I seek your guidance, Sir, as to what we can do about this, because I fear for what will happen politically in Northern Ireland and elsewhere if hon. Members here deliberately curtail discussion by giving notice that they will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman must know that when an hon. Member gives notice of his intention to raise a matter on the Adjournment that closes it. It is not for Mr. Speaker to investigate the motives either of the hon. Gentleman who raised this point of order or of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who gave notice as to the Adjournment.