HC Deb 28 May 1968 vol 765 cc1717-21


Mr. Bessell

I beg to move Amendment No. 235, in page 86, line 18, after ' such ', insert ' reasonable '.

This Amendment does not have any great significance. The subsection reads: A licensing authority, in granting an operator's licence, may attach thereto such conditions as he thinks fit for requiring the holder to inform him— Then we have a series of things including changes of a kind specified in the conditions, in the organisation, management or ownership of the trade or business in the course of which the authorised vehicles are used and various other matters spelt out in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) and the penalties which apply under subsection (2). It seems fair to insert between the words "such" and "conditions" the word "reasonable". This would prevent a licensing authority from imposing any very severe conditions which might inhibit any person from making an application in circumstances which might make it difficult for him to obtain a licence. I do not pretend that the Amendment is of great significance, but it might reassure many people who are anxious that they should not have difficulty in obtaining a licence.

Mr. Carmichael

It is reasonable to remove doubts in people's minds but the way suggested by the hon. Gentleman is not the best. Apart from the fact that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to know what meaning to attach to the word "reasonable" in this

context, the subsection already sets out in some detail in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) the types of conditions which the licensing authority may attach to a licence. Any conditions not falling within the description of those paragraphs would not in any case be allowed.

If an applicant felt that certain of the conditions appeared unreasonable, although falling within the scope of the subsection, he could, under Clause 66(l)(a), appeal to the Minister against the imposition of those conditions. The applicant is, therefore, well protected in his right of appeal and in the conditions laid down in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c). I hope that, on my assurance, the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the Amendment.

Mr. Bessell

I am grateful for that explanation. I readily admit that this is the kind of point we would have discussed in Standing Committee had we been able to do so. The hon. Gentleman's answer, particularly in relation to the appeal machinery, is satisfactory, and in these circumstances I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Marsh

While the night is still young, I beg to move, That the proceedings of this day's Sitting be suspended.

Question put forthwith, pursuant to Order [12th December] {Sittings of the House):—

The House divided: Ayes 274, Noes 227.

Division No. 191.] AYES [12.5 a.m.
Albu, Austen Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Conlan, Bernard
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Boydern, James Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Alldritt, Walter Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Allen, Schotefield Bradley, Tom Crawshaw, Richard
Anderson, Donald Bray, Dr. Jeremy Cronin, John
Archer, Peter Brooks, Edwin Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Armstrong, Ernest Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Dalyell, Tarn
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.W.) Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)
Barnes, Michael Buchan, Norman Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Barnett, Joel Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)
Bence, Cyril Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Creen) Davies, Harold (Leek)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Davies, Ifor (Cower)
Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) Cant, R. B. de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey
Bidwell, Sydney Carmichael, Neil Delargy, Hugh
Bishop, E. S. Carter-Jones, Lewis Dell, Edmund
Blackburn, F. Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Dempsey, James
Blenkinsop, Arthur Coe, Denis Dewar, Donald
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Coleman, Donald Diamond, Rt. Hn. John
Booth, Albert Concannon, J. D. Dickens, James
Dobson, Ray Kelley, Richard Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Doig, Peter Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) Pavitt, Laurence
Driberg, Tom Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Dunnett, Jack Lawson, George Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Leadbitter, Ted Pentland, Norman
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Ledger, Ron Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Eadie, Alex Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lee, John (Reading) Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Lestor, Miss Joan Price, William (Rugby)
Ellis, John Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Probert, Arthur
English, Michael Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Rankin, John
Enrols, David Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rees, Merlyn
Ensor, David Lipton, Marcus Reynolds, G. W.
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Lomas, Kenneth Rhodes, Geoffrey
Faulds, Andrew Loughlin, Charles Richard, Ivor
Femyhough, E. Luard, Evan Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as)
Foley, Maurice McBride, Neil Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) McCann, John Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Ford, Ben MacColl, James Roebuck, Roy
Forrester, John MacDermot, Niall Rose, Paul
Fowler, Gerry Macdonald, A. H. Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Fraser, John (Norwood) McKay, Mrs. Margaret Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)
Freeson, Reginald Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Ryan, John
Galpern, Sir Myer Mackie, John Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.)
Gardner, Tony Mackintosh, John P. Sheldon, Robert
Ginsburg, David Maclennan, Robert Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Gregory, Arnold McNamara, J. Kevin Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Grey, Charles (Durham) MacPherson, Malcolm Skeffington, Arthur
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Slater, Joseph
Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Small, William
Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. Mallalieu, J.P. W.(Huddersfield,E.) Snow, Julian
Hamling, William Manuel, Archie Spriggs, Leslie
Hannan, William Marks, Kenneth Stonehouse, John
Harper, Joseph Marquand, David Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Harrison, Waiter (Wakefield) Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Haseldine, Norman Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Swain, Thomas
Hattersley, Roy Maxwell, Robert Swingler, Stephen
Hazell, Bert Mayhew, Christopher Taverne, Dick
Heffer, Eric S. Mendelson, J. J. Thomas,Rt.Hn.Ceorge(Cardiff,W.)
Hilton, W. s. Mikardo, Ian Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Hooley, Frank Millan, Bruce Tinn, James
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Miller, Dr. M. S. Tomney, Frank
Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) Miline, Edward (Blyth) Urwin, T. W.
Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Varley, Eric G.
Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Molloy, William Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Howie, W. Moonman, Eric Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Hoy, James Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Wallace, George
Huckfleld, Leslie Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Watkins, David (Consett)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Morris, John (Aberavon) Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Moyle, Roland Weitzman, David
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Murray, Albert Wellbeloved, James
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Neal, Harold Whitaker, Ben
Hunter, Adam Newens, Stan Whitlock, William
Hynd, John Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Norwood, Christopher Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Ogden, Eric Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) O'Malley, Brian Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Oram, Albert E. Willis, Rt. Hn. George (Edinburgh,E.)
Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&st.P'cras,S.) Orme, Stanley Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Oswald, Thomas Winnick, David
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Owen,Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Owen, Will (Morpeth) Woof, Robert
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Paget, R. T. Yates, Victor
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) Palmer, Arthur
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Park, Trevor Mr. Charles R. Morris and Mr. loan L. Evans
Judd, Frank Parker, John (Dagenham)
Allson, Michael (Barkston Ash) Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Biffen, John
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Batsford, Brian Biggs-Davison, John
Astor, John Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Black, Sir Cyril
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Bell, Ronald Blaker, Peter
Awdry, Daniel Bermett, Sir Frederick (Torquay) Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Body, Richard
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Berry, Hn. Anthony Bossom, Sir Cllve
Balniel, Lord Bessell, Peter Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Braine, Bernard Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Pardoe, John
Brewis, John Harvie Anderton, Miss Pearson, Sir Frank (Clltheroe)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Hastings, Stephen Peel, John
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hawkins, Paul Percival, Ian
Bruce-Gardy ne, J. Hay, John Peyton, John
Bryan, Paul Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pike, Miss Mervyn
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N & M) Heseltine, Michael Pink, R. Bonner
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Higgins, Terence L. Pounder, Rafton
Bullus, Sir Eric Hilley, Joseph Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Burden, F. A. Hill, J. E. B. Price, David (Eastleigh)
Campbell, Cordon Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin Prior, J. M. L.
Carlisle, Mark Holland, Philip Pym, Francis
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Hooson, Emlyn Quermell, Miss J. M.
Channon, H. P. G. Hordern, Peter Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Chichester-Clark, R. Hornby, Richard Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Clark, Henry Howell, David (Guildford) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Clegg, Walter Hunt, John Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Cooke, Robert Hutchison, Michael Clark Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Corfteld, F. V. Iremonger, T. L. Ridsdale, Julian
Costam, A. p. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Crouch, David Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Russell, Sir Ronald
Crowder, F. P. Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) st. John-Stevas, Norman
Cunningham, Sir Knox Kaberry, Sir Donald Scott, Nicholas
Currle, G. B. H. Kerby, Capt. Henry Scott-Hopkins, James
Dalkeith, Earl of Kershaw, Anthony Sharpies, Richard
Dance, James Kimball, Marcus Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire,W.) King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Silvester, Frederick
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Kirk, Peter Sinclair, Sir George
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Kitson, Timothy Smith, Dudley (W'wick& L'mington)
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Lambton, Viscount Smith,John (London & W'minster)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Lancaster, Col. C. G. Speed, Keith
Doughty, Charles Lane, David Stainton, Keith
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Drayson, G. B. Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Stodart, Anthony
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward LIoyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)
Eden, Sir John Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langs tone) Tapsell, Peter
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshallon) Lubbock, Eric Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) MacArthur, Ian Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow.Cathcart)
Emery, Peter Mackenzie,AIasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Errington, Sir Eric Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Teellng, Sir William
Ewing, Mrs. Winifred Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Temple, John M.
Eyre, Reginald McMaster, Stanley Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Farr, John Macmillian, Maurice (Farnham) Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Fisher, Nigel Maddan, Martin Vickers, Dame Joan
Fletcher-Coolie, Charles Maglnnls, John E. Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Forteecue, Tim Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Foster, Sir John Marten, Neil Wall, Patrick
Caibraith, Hn. T. G. Maude, Angus Walters, Dennis
Gibson-Watt, David Mawby, Ray Weatherill, Bernard
Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan Mills, Peter (Torrington) Webster, David
Gllmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Glyn, Sir Richard Misoampbell, Norman Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Goodhart, Philip Monro, Hector Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Goodhew, Victor Montgomery, Fergus Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Gower, Raymond Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Grant, Anthony Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Wolrlge-Gordon, Patrick
Grant-Ferris, R. Murton, Oscar Wodd, Rt. Hn Richard
Gresham Cooke, R. Neave, Airey Woodnutt, Mark
Grieve, Percy Nicholls, Sir Harmar worsley, Marcus
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Wylie, N. R.
Gurden, Harold Nott, John Younger, Hn. George
Hall, John (Wycombe) Onslow, Cranley
Hail-Davis, A. G. F. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian Mr. Jasper More and Mr. Anthony Royle.
Harrison, Brian (MaMon) Page, Graham (Crosby)