§ MANUFACTURE, REPAIR AND SUPPLY
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineI beg to move Amendment No. 164, in page 61, line 7, to leave out paragraph (a).
Mr. Deputy SpeakerIt is suggested that at the same time we should consider the following Amendments: No. 165, in page 61, line 7, leave out from 'manufacturing' to 'anything' in line 10.
No. 166, in line 11, leave out from 'authority' to end of line 17 and insert:
'can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Minister that they can manufacture cheaper, quicker or to a higher standard than outside suppliers and the authority may repair anything used by it in the course of its business provided that in deciding to so manufacture or repair the authority shall not indulge in such activity unless it shall have materials or facilities for or skill in the manufacture or repair of that thing in connection with some principal activity of that authority or that subsidiary'.No. 176, in line 28, leave out' existing' and insert' principal'.No. 177, in line 28 leave out from 'means ' to end of line 32 and insert:
'an activity which is reasonably regarded as activity that is necessary for the authority to carry on to ensure the provision of the transport services for which that authority was established and in this connection ancillary or incidental activities of the authority shall not be so regarded'.and No. 186, in line 28, leave out subsection (10).
§ Mr. HeseltineWe now come to the most significant single Clause in the whole of this Transport Bill and it is one of the most grotesque aspects of this whole performance that we should reach it with five minutes to go, having spent one hour and seven minutes discussing a 1630 Clause introduced on Report stage by this Government to raise £30 million for London Transport which their own Ministers know they have no right to treat in this particular way. Having wasted 25 per cent. of the time we are now expected to discuss Clause 45 in four minutes.
If The Times was right this morning in saying that the Bill was not a bad monument to the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Barbara Castle), then this Clause is the headstone of that monument; because this Clause extends the powers of nationalised transport boards and undertakings into manufacturing any product that those undertakings believe they are capable of manufacturing and for which they have facilities. The fact of the matter is that this is a major doctrinal difference between the two sides of this House, and if one accepts the sincere wish of hon. Members opposite to extend the powers of nationalised undertakings in this way, they will expect us to protest in the name of the overwhelming majority of the people of this country who have made it abundantly clear that they want no such extension of powers of this kind.
When we read the language in which this new Clause is couched our fears could not be greater, because we find these organisations, which have been nationalised purely for the purpose of creating transport undertakings which are considered to be provided only in the way of State enterprises, are now to be permitted to indulge, virtually without control, in any other kind of activity that, at their whim, they feel they should be able to do. One realises that this is the last time a Clause of nationalisation will ever need to come before this House; because at any time in the future that a 1631 Labour Government wants to buy into the private sector they will have no need to introduce a Bill into this House. All they have to do is to go to one of the nationalised transport undertakings and get that undertaking to buy it for them.
§ Mr. MarshI would make the point that they will be able to do that only within the context of the very strict financial disciplines laid upon them; and why should not the taxpayers be allowed to use their assets in that way?
§ Mr. HeseltineI am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's reference to strict financial disciplines. Those are there because we on this side put them in. They are there as a result of concessions made by the Government during the Committee stage. The right hon. Gentleman was not the Minister at the time but he will know that we put down an Amendment during the Committee stage to make these undertakings behave as commercial undertakings and that concession was made.
§ Mr. Leadbitter rose—
1632§ Mr. HeseltineWe have listened to the hon. Member enough today. We are not listening to him any more. The concession we obtained from the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor is severely curtailed by the definition given to it by the Minister of State. The Minister of State, in quotations already put before the House this afternoon, made it quite clear that all he thinks commercial undertakings have to do is to break even and earn interest—that is what he said. The right hon. Gentleman may object to what he said, but we are moving this Amendment because we are appalled at the prospect that the principal factor to be complied with in the limitless range of activities by State organisations is that they have to earn a modicum of rate of interest on their assets. This definition was introduced by the Minister of State and therefore in order that the House may express its opinion, I beg to move the Amendment.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 232, Noes 277.
1633| Division No. 187.] | AYES | [7.59 p.m. |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Chichester-Clark, R. | Goodhart, Philip |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstcad) | Clark, Henry | Goodhew, Victor |
| Astor, John | Clegg, Walter | Cower, Raymond |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Cooke, Robert | Cram, Anthony |
| Awdry, Daniel | Corfleld, F. V. | Grant-Ferris, R. |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Costain, A. P. | Gresham Cooke, R. |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Craddock, Sir Beresford (Speithome) Grieve, Percy | |
| Batoiel, Lord | Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Crouch, David | Grimood, Rt. Hn. J. |
| Batsford, Brian | Crowder, F. P. | Gurden, Harold |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Cunningham, Sir Knox | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Bell, Ronald | Currie, G. B. H. | HaH-Davis, A. G. F. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Daikeith, Earl of | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Dance, James | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Besselt, Peter | Davidson,James(Aberdeenshire,W.) | Harrison, Brian (Matdon) |
| Biffen, John | Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Digby, Simon Wingfieid | Harvie Anderson, Miss |
| Blaker, Peter | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Hastings, Stephen |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Doughty, Charles | Hawkins, Paul |
| Body, Richard | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Hay, John |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Drayson, G. B. | Heaid, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward |
| Braine, Bernard | Eden, Sir John | Heseltine, Michael |
| Brewis, John | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Br'mton, Sir Tatton | EIHiott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Hiley, Joseph |
| Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Emery, Peter | Hill, J. E. B. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Errington, Sir Eric | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin |
| Bruce, Gardyrte, J. | Eyre, Reginald | Holland, Philip |
| Bryan, Paul | Farr, John | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N & M) | Fisher, Nigel | Homby, Richard |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Ftetcher-Cooke, Charles | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Forteecue, Tim | Hunt, John |
| Burden, F. A. | Foster, Sir John | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Campbell, Gordon | Gibson-Watt, David | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Carlisle, Mark | Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Glyn, Sir Richard | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Neave, Airey | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Speed, Keith |
| Kerby, Capt. Henry | Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael | Stainton, Keith |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Nott, John | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Kimball, Marcus | Onslow, Cranley | Stodart, Anthony |
| King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Orr, Capt. L. P. s. | Stoddart-Scotl, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Kirk, Peter | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian | Tapsell, Peter |
| Lambton, Viscount | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Lane, David | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Pardoe, John | Teeling, Sir William |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Temple, John M. |
| Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoflrey(Sut'nC'dfield) | Peel, John | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Percival, Ian | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Lubbock, Eric | Peyton, John | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Pink, R. Bonner | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| MacArthur, Ian | Pounder, Rafton | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross & Crom'ty) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain | Prior, J. M. L. | Wall, Patrick |
| McMaster, Stanley | Pym, Francis | Walters, Dennis |
| MacmMian, Maurice (Famhant) | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Maddan, Martin | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Webster, David |
| Maginnis, John E. | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Marten, Neil | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Maude, Angus | Ridsdale, Julian | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Mawby, Ray | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Royle, Anthony | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Russell, Sir Ronald | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Worsley, Marcus |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Scott, Nicholas | Wylie, N. R. |
| More, Jaspe | Scott-Hopkins, James | Younger, Hn. George |
| Morgan, Ceraint (Denbigh) | Sharpies, Richard | |
| Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Silvester, Frederick | Mr. Hector Monro and |
| Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Sinclair, Sir George | Mr. Timothy Kitson. |
| Murton, Oscar | Smith, Dudley (W'wick& L'mlngton) | |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) |
| Albu, Austin | Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Faulds, Andrew |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Chapman, Donald | Femyhough, E. |
| Alldritt, Walter | Coe, Denis | Fletcher, Raymond (Iikeston) |
| Allen, Schole field | Coleman, Donald | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Anderson, Donald | Concannon, J. D. | Foley, Maurice |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Conlan, Bernard | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Ford, Ben |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Forrester, John |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Crawshaw, Richard | Fowler, Gerry |
| Barnes, Michael | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Fraser, John (Norwood) |
| Barnett, Joel | Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Freeson, Reginald |
| Baxter, William | Dalyell, Tarn | Galpem, Sir Myer |
| Beaney, Alan | Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Gardner, Tony |
| Bence, Cyril | Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Cinsburg, David |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Daviea, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Gregory, Arnold |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Grey, Charles (Durham) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) |
| Blackburn, F. | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Griffiths, Witt (Exchange) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Delargy, Hugh | Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. |
| Booth, Albert | Dell, Edmund | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Dempsey, James | Hamling, WHIiam |
| Boyden, James | Dewar, Donald | Hannan, William |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Harper, Joseph |
| Bradley, Tom | Dickens, James | Harrison, Waller (Wakefield) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Dobson, Ray | Haseldine, Norman |
| Brooks, Edwin | Doig, Peter | Hatterdey, Roy |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Dunn, James A. | Hazell, Bert |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Dunnett, Jack | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Brown,Bob(M'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Henig, Stanley |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & f'bury) | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Hilton, W. S. |
| Buchan, Norman | Eadie, Alex | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Hooley, Frank |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Ellis, John | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) |
| Callaghan. Rt. Hn. James | English, Michael | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) |
| Cant, R. B. | Ensor, David | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Evans, Albert (Islington, s.w.) | Howie, W. |
| Hoy, James | Mapp, Charles | Robinson, W.O.J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Marks, Kenneth | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Marquand, David | Roebuck, Roy |
| Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Rose, Paul |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Mayhew, Christopher | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Hunter, Adam | Mendelson, J. J. | Ryan, John |
| Hynd, John | Mikardo, lan | Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) |
| Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Millan, Bruce | Sheldon, Robert |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n & St.P'cras, S.) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Short, Rt. Hn. Eclward (N'c' tle-u-Tyne) |
| Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Molloy, William | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Moonman, Eric | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Slater, Joseph |
| Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham,S.) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Small, William |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Snow, Julian |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Murray, Albert | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Judd, Frank | Neal, Harold | Stonehouse, John |
| Kelley, Richard | Newens, Stan | Strauss, Rt. Hn. C. R. |
| Kenyon, Clifford | Norwood, Christopher | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Oakes, Cordon | Swain, Thomas |
| Lawson, George | Ogden, Eric | Swingler, Stephen |
| Leadbitter, Ted | O'Malley, Brian | Symonds, J. B. |
| Ledger, Ron | Oram, Albert E. | Taverne, Dick |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) | Ormc, Stanley | Thornton, Ernest |
| Lee, John (Reading) | Oswald, Thomas | Tinn, James |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | Torrey, Frank |
| Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lipton, Marcus | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Varley, Eric C. |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Paget, R. T. | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Loughlin, Charles | Palmer, Arthur | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Luard, Evan | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Wallace, George |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Park, Trevor | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| McBride, Neil | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| McCann, John | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Weitzman, David |
| MacColl, James | Pavitt, Laurence | Wellbeloved, James |
| MacDermot, Niall | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Whitaker, Ben |
| Macdonald, A. H. | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Whitlock, William |
| McGuire, Michael | Pentland, Norman | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Mackie, John | Price, William (Rugby) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Probert, Arthur | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Maclennan, Robert | Randall, Harry | Winnick, David |
| Macmillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Rankin, John | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Rees, Merlyn | Woof, Robert |
| McNamara, J. Kevin | Reynolds, G. W. | Yates, Victor |
| MacPherson, Malcolm | Rhodes, Geoffrey | |
| Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Richard, Ivor | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Mr. Alan Fitch and Mr. Ernest G. Perry. |
| Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Hudersfield,E.) | Robertson, John (Paisley) | |
| Manuel, Archie | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as) |
§ It being after Eight o'clock, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded, pursuant to Order, to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments, moved by a member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at Eight o'clock.