NORTHERN IRELAND (Hansard, 25 October 1967)

§ Mr. Gerard Fitt (Belfast, West)
It would be accepted by all Members of the House that it is a matter of regret that such a short time is left today to debate the Northern Ireland region. Since we last debated the region, over 14 months ago, every other region has been debated many times over. It would probably be agreed that the problems in Northern Ireland are of such importance that a good deal more time should have been given by the Government to debate them.
The subject was last discussed when I raised it on the Consolidation Fund. I had sincerely hoped that when Northern Ireland was next discussed dramatic changes would have taken place there. It is with a sense of deep disappointment that I stand here today and tell the House that no changes have taken place in Northern Ireland since the subject was last debated.

§ Mr. John E. Maginnis (Armagh)
Except for the rise in unemployment.

§ Mr. Fitt
We have certainly had an increase in unemployment, which has affected every other region in the United Kingdom. I am delighted to hear that interjection from another Northern Ireland representative, because it gives me an opportunity to pay tribute to the present Government here and to say that Northern Ireland has received more by way of financial assistance than any other region. The Government have received very little thanks for that. If the Tory representatives from Northern Ireland were being honest with themselves they would thank the Labour administration for helping the Northern Ireland economy.
Mark Arnold Foster compiled, and published in The Guardian a statistical analysis pointing out very clearly, that over and above all tax collected in Northern Ireland, it cost the British taxpayer and Exchequer £117 million per year to subsidise Northern Ireland. That is a vast figure and, since it has been published, further financial assistance has been provided.
In his Budget speech this year the Chancellor announced that a further £50 million in loans would be given to the 1663 Northern Ireland region for public authority and local authority works. I felt that before that money was given to the Northern Ireland Government, strings should be attached to it, so that we should have some say as to how it was spent. That money, given to the Northern Ireland Tories, is being spent in the areas where they will gain the most electoral support.[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] In the City of Derry, the town of Newry and in Strabane not one cent of that £50 million has been received, yet it was given to the Northern Ireland Government for the development of those areas.

An Hon. Member
Totally untrue.

§ Mr. Fitt
Within the past few months a further £1,500,000 has been given to the Northern Ireland Government to plough into areas of high unemployment. The British Government are financially guaranteeing the building of two of the largest tankers to be built in the United Kingdom. Allied to this project we have a financial guarantee by the British Government of the building of an enormous dry dock at Belfast. The financial guarantees amount to something like £20 million or £30 million.
There is no other area within the United Kingdom which has received such financial assistance. It ill behoves any Tory from Northern Ireland to attempt to criticise the work of this Labour administration. Those very Members are worthy of criticism, because in spite of these vast sums of money given to the Northern Ireland Government, we still have the position that in the City of Derry, there are 5,000 unemployed—representing 20 per cent. of the male population and 13.9 per cent. of the female population. In Newry there is 19 per cent. of the male population unemployed and 11.9 per cent. of the female population. In Omagh the figures are 14 per cent. male unemployed and 8.9 per cent. female. In Strabane it is 25 per cent. male—one man in every four—and 9.8 per cent. for females.
Most hon. Members on this side of the House at least will agree with me that these are figures which would not be tolerated in any other area.[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The reason why these figures have reached such a height is because these areas are anti-Unionist 1664 areas and the Northern Ireland Government have deliberately, over the years, engaged in a policy of industrial isolation because of the electoral complexion of such areas.
All reasonable people, on whatever side of the House, should condemn this policy. No matter what the political complexion of an area may be in this part of the United Kingdom it is admitted by Members of all political parties that the people in it are entitled to a home and a job. This is not how the Northern Ireland Unionists see it. Before any further financial assistance is given by this Government strings should be attached saying where the money is to be spent—where the need is greatest. I say this as an Irishman, but principally as a Socialist, sitting on the Socialist benches of this House.
There is a figure of 8 per cent. unemployed in the Northern Ireland region, but there is a region within a region. It is this which is the victim of the Unionist machinations and policy, to make quite certain that these people will not have jobs in their own areas, but will be denied homes and be forced to emigrate to Great Britain, thereby taking away a danger which would otherwise arise, threatening the Unionist electoral representation.
All that I ask for my constituents are the same rights and privileges which are enjoyed by every other British subject. I do not think it is too much to ask. When I raised this subject last I made a very reasonable request that the citizens of Northern Ireland, who are allegedly an integral part of the United Kingdom, should have the benefit of the "one man one vote" system, operating as it does in every other United Kingdom constituency, for local and central government. This is not an outlandish request. I realise that in making such a reasonable request I will meet violent opposition from the members of the Unionist Party because they appreciate that, if such a proposal were accepted, it would affect them electorally.
The people of Northern Ireland have great respect for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. They appreciate the stand he has taken against discrimination in this country. My right hon. Friend has thought it important to introduce legislation to protect minorities; 1665 Pakistanis, Indians and other immigrants to Britain. If Her Majesty's Government consider it necessary to have protective legislation of this kind, how much more necessary it is that this same protection is given to United Kingdom citizens in Northern Ireland. I press here and now for all the legislation that has been introduced to protect minorities in this country to be made applicable to Northern Ireland.
Why, in Northern Ireland, do we not have an office of the Parliamentary Commissioner? If it is good enough for Manchester it is good enough for Northern Ireland. I appreciate that by asking for the protection of this type of legislation I am seeking to erode the edifice of Unionism and Toryism in Northern Ireland, but in doing so I ask for the support of every liberal-minded hon. Member in this House.
I also appreciate the other difficulties which are facing the Home Secretary. Perhaps he does not want to bring about another constitutional crisis in relation to Northern Ireland. Her Majesty's Government face an acute economic problem, the problem of Rhodesia, of Vietnam, of the Middle East, of our balance of payments and so on. Despite these other urgent problems, it is my duty, as the representative of West Belfast, to ask for attention to be paid to Northern Ireland affairs, which, in my opinion, are very low on the agenda of this House. However, I know that I have the wholehearted support of my hon. Friends, in addition to the support of some hon. Gentlemen opposite, in demanding that Northern Ireland affairs be given more consideration.
If the Home Secretary considers—and he has my support in this—that it is important to have race relations legislation and to extend it, I urge him to ensure that that legislation is extended to cover religious discrimination, for this type of discrimination in Northern Ireland can be far more vicious and soul-destroying than any action which may be taken against coloured immigrants.
The Belfast Telegraph, a newspaper which is recognised as normally being a supporter of the Unionist Administration in Northern Ireland—although it is also known for trying to get away from certain old ideas and calling for a more 1666 liberal attitude—felt it important to write an editorial in the Saturday, 30th September, issue headed, "Sublime stupidity". Under that heading the newspaper stated: The Minister of Education began it. Reconstituting the Employment Service Board, he appointed 33 members, chiefly Education Committee nominees. At the most, three were Roman Catholic. The Minister of Health followed with the Hospitals Authority (22 members, two Catholics) and the General Health Service Board (24 members, two Catholics). The editorial went on: Here is the old old story, so old that it has almost passed without remark. But this time it makes nonsense of the Prime Minister and all that is said about a bridge-building policy. An opportunity to invite a larger number of Roman Catholics to participate in public service could not have been more opportune. In the event, not one additional appointment was made. Should this be? The editorial went on to question the sincerity of the Northern Ireland Prime Minister.

§ Sir Knox Cunningham (Antrim, South)
The hon. Gentleman will recall that he drew the attention of the Northern Ireland Parliament to an advertisement which appeared in a local newspaper, in which it was stated None but Roman Catholics need apply. I imagine that he would also include that in his strictures.

§ Mr. Fitt
My hon. Friends will remember that I happened to be in Westminster when that advertisement appeared. I was incensed by it. I made inquiries in the Northern Ireland Parliament and asked the Minister for Home Affairs to carry out an investigation. He did and, in reply to me a few days later, said he had found that the advertisement was authentic. I then made further inquiries. What he regarded as authenticity was this: a man went into the newspaper office, asked for the advertisement to be inserted and paid for it. In fact, no job there was available, no such firm existed and, what is more, it was done by supporters of the Unionist Party in an attempt—[Interruption.]

§ Sir Knox Cunningham
The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong and if anyone wishes to read the exchanges which took place in Parliament there on this subject he need only refer to the Northern 1667 Ireland House of Commons HANSARD for 11th May, and at columns 1173 to 1175 he will see exactly what happened. The hon. Gentleman made no objection at the time. There was an inquiry and this was found to have been a perfectly authentic advertisement. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his views about whether it should be regarded as discriminatory, but the facts are there.

§ Mr. Fitt
I have said what I have said without hesitation. Indeed, I have now discovered the name of the person who placed the advertisement. I am referring to a member of the Unionist Party—[HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] I give an undertaking to the Home Secretary that I will send him the name and address of this person—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. R. Chichester-Clark (Londonderry)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that my hon. Friends and I think as much of this declaration on his part as we thought of the one he made in this House about telephone tapping by the Unionist Party and the fact that it had been admitted in the Northern Ireland Parliament? On that occasion we were told that evidence would be submitted to the Prime Minister. Have we seen any such evidence? When are we likely to see it? Or will the hon. Gentleman withdraw that assertion now, because until he does—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Fitt
No.

§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)
On a point of order. Is it in order for hon. Gentlemen opposite to make speeches when they are supposed to be intervening? Should not they wait until they have an opportunity to speak?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)
Order. Mr. Fitt.

§ Mr. Fitt
I had hoped that there would not be too many interventions. The more that hon. Gentlemen opposite intervene and stop me speaking the more they will be limiting their own time to speak.
It will be remembered that on two or three occasions I have had an opportunity to speak about Northern Ireland affairs in this House. Two days after I spoke on this issue the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) 1668 stood at the Dispatch Box in a foreign affairs debate and claimed that I had made wild assertions. He claimed that it was all lies and that nothing like this was happening in Northern Ireland. He more or less said, "Shipmates do not believe him, because he is a liar".
Only one way existed to prove or disprove my allegations. On that occasion I took the only way out. I took a number of my hon. Friends to Northern Ireland to see for themselves. I took them to the area to see at first hand the charges I had levelled at the Northern Ireland Government; and they came back convinced of the justness and rightness of my accusations. They have had talks with the Home Secretary about it and I am, therefore, supported by them today—although before me is a galaxy of talent in the shape of 11 Tories opposite. Suffice to say that my hon. Friends understand the situation in Northern Ireland.
We have a severe economic burden in Northern Ireland, but any help that the Westminster Government has given to the region will not gain the British Labour Party a single vote, because the Unionist Party takes all the credit for anything this Government have done to alleviate unemployment. Two or three months ago, when the unemployment figures were very high, the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland had discussions here with the Cabinet, and the Minister of Commerce had discussions with the Cabinet and so did the Minister of Finance. Each one of them was vying with the other for the credit, saying: "I went to Whitehall and I wrung this assistance from the British Government. They did not want to give us anything, but I got it." Not one of the local papers said that the British administration wanted to alleviate the unemployment situation—the Unionists took all the credit, saying, "We went to London and demanded what you need to keep your jobs." I therefore ask the British Government to look again at the way they deal with the Northern Ireland Government.
We do not have a Parliamentary Commissioner in Northern Ireland at the moment, but I suggest that we should have an economic Ombudsman—to call him for want of a better name; a person in this Government who could act as 1669 liaison officer between the Northern Ireland Government and this Government on questions of development in Northern Ireland. He would be aware, I am sure, of the discrimination that takes place in Derry, Newry, Strabane and other areas, and would take steps, perhaps, to remedy that situation. That would stop the continuous to-ing and fro-ing by various Northern Ireland Ministers all trying to get the credit and ensure their further election to the Northern Ireland Parliament.
I understand that legislation is pending relating to the social services agreement which exists between this Parliament and the Northern Ireland Parliament by which every single cent paid out in Northern Ireland comes from the British taxpayer. The Northern Ireland Exchequer does not contribute one halfpenny. Yet, at election time, the Unionists say: "Just look at the great social benefits we have"—conveniently forgetting to add that those benefits are paid for by the British taxpayer.
The British taxpayer gets very little thanks for what he pays out. We remember the activities of the 12 Tory Unionist Members who, from 1964 to 1966, tried their damndest to bring about the downfall of the British Administration. That was scant thanks for the help that was given. Members of this Parliament should take a long time to forget those very troublesome days, when the British Government was put in peril by the activities of those 12 Members. I understand that such legislation is pending, but rumours have got abroad in Northern Ireland that the British Government may be reluctant to introduce it in case it should lead to a whole debate on Northern Ireland. I urge the Government, if it is necessary to introduce that legislation, to introduce it as early as possible.
I also understand that in a recent White Paper the Lord Chancellor recently referred to the effects of Common Market entry on Northern Ireland, and stated that a further extension should be given to the Northern Ireland Parliament if and when we enter the Common Market. The British Government should be very reluctant to give further power to the Northern Ireland Parliament.
1670 I understand, too, that legislation is pending to enable the British Government to appoint a sixth High Court judge in Northern Ireland and that this will entail amendment of the existing Government of Ireland Act, 1920—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman has managed to discuss under this Motion almost every subject he has wished to discuss, but the one thing he should not discuss is new legislation.

§ Mr. Fitt
I readily accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I only say that, if such legislation is pending, the Government should make sure of establishing guarantees.
A very important point affects my constituency in the Northern Ireland Parliament—the Dock Division of Belfast; not Belfast West. A portion of the old Victoria Barracks, formerly held by the Minister of Defence, has been given to the Belfast Corporation for housing purposes. The Ministry of Defence retained 9½ acres, and in a Parliamentary Question I asked the Minister of Defence whether he would be prepared to give up that remaining 9½ acres for housing development in order to help to relieve the serious land famine in Belfast. The reply was that the Ministry would be quite prepared to give up the land to the Northern Ireland Government or the Belfast Corporation. There has since been a decided reluctance by the Northern Ireland Government and by the city to acquire that land for housing purposes, on the ground that it would upset the present electoral machinery there. So we do not have houses built because it might affect the seats—

§ Sir Knox Cunningham
That is not true.

§ Mr. Fitt
I understand that the hon. and learned Member for Antrim, South (Sir Knox Cunningham) is to appear on B.B.C. Television in Northern Ireland on Sunday, and I can assure him that the whole population there is waiting with bated breath to hear him. I can assure him that the T.A.M. rating will go up by 100 per cent.—

§ Sir Knox Cunningham
Also untrue.

§ Mr. Fitt
I began my remarks by saying that 14 months have elapsed since we 1671 last had a debate on Northern Ireland and I should have thought that dramatic reforms would have taken place in that time. In this country they would not be regarded as dramatic at all. What is dramatic about giving one man one vote? What is dramatic about putting an end to gerrymandering, and giving jobs to people according to their need? But all these things are dramatic in Northern Ireland. Yet not one step has been taken by Northern Ireland to implement such reforms.
I realise that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland is accepted by the Government Front Bench here as one of the more liberal Prime Ministers we have had in Northern Ireland. I suppose that he is accepted as the best of a bad lot—"Don't shoot the pianist, he's doing his best." At the same time, the British Government have the right to insist on reforms in Northern Ireland. They can tighten the pursestrings, and say, "You will get no more money to be spent to your own political advantage in a given area. If we give any financial resources, they will have to be spent in Strabane, Newry and all the other areas where the people are living in deplorable conditions, and where men have never known what it is to have a job in their own home town."
Those made unemployed in Belfast are in a far better position than they would have been three years ago, because since then this British Government have given us the Redundancy Payments Act, earnings-related supplementary benefit, and the like, but these advantages do not apply to people in Strabane and Newry: they cannot have any earnings-related supplementary benefit because, due to the policies of the Unionist Party, they have not had any earnings for the last 10 years.
I must impress on the Home Secretary the urgency of the situation. Speaking in Trafalgar Square a few months ago, I said that where we had an exploited and oppressed people, denied houses and jobs because of their religion or because they were not supporters of the Unionist Party, and they reached such a stage of frustration that they found that there was nothing to be gained constitutionaly, who could blame them if they themselves tried to do something to rectify their own 1672 position. I was roundly condemned by the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills), who sent letters to every hon. Member of this House but, in a cowardly manner, refused to meet me in public debate in Northern Ireland on the subject. He refused to meet me in public debate and I said that I would debate with him in any public hall.

§ Mr. Stratton Mills (Belfast, North)
The hon. Member is keeping to his usual standards of accuracy. I was not invited to debate with him in Northern Ireland, although I would be glad to do so. What I would do is to debate with him in this House on that speech. If he would sit down, we could get on with it.

§ Mr. Fitt
When people feel that there can be no redress of their wrongs in a constitutional way by drawing attention to the existing situation, they would be quite entitled and it would be morally valid for them to do something to rectify their position. I said this at the conference in Scarborough and I listened to Anthony Lester speaking on the Race Relations Act. He spoke of the population in America and said that he did not want the same situation here with such riots as there have been in Chicago and other areas. Those people are entitled to take steps to rectify their grievances. I predicted what would happen in Northern Ireland. I did not incite people to violence—[Hon. MEMBERS: "Oh !"]—but at this moment this is happening. Only last week in the town of Dungannon—

§ Mr. Fitt
No, sit down.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Mr. Fitt.

§ Mr. Fitt
Only last week in Dungannon 15 housing allocations were made by the local authority yet people whose names had been on the waiting list for years were denied.

§ Mr. Stratton Mills
On a point of order. This important debate on Northern Ireland is taking only something like an hour and ten minutes. Is there nothing you can do, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to prevent the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) from hogging all the time and keeping out other hon. Members?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has been speaking for a long time. I am sure that all hon. Members will bear in mind that there is very little time left for this debate. Mr. Fitt.

§ Mr. Fitt
The Tories from Northern Ireland have been speaking in debates here for the last 40 years. I have an opportunity to speak now, and I shall certainly take that opportunity.[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The debate will be more useful and more effective if it is heard in silence. Mr. Fitt.

§ Mr. Fitt
The Tories representing Northern Ireland spoke a great deal, and voted a great deal, from 1964 to 1966. I am taking the opportunity to point out what happened in those years. I want to give the hon. Member for Belfast, North a chance. I know that he is in a state of nervous frustration at the moment, but I want to give him a chance to reply. Hon. Members will listen carefully to his remarks, which I am sure will be completely unacceptable to most hon. Members.
To the Home Secretary I say that many people in Northern Ireland are looking to the British Government to impress on the Northern Ireland Government the necessity for bringing about reforms in Northern Ireland to ensure that we are all treated as British subjects. That is all we ask. We do not ask for more. I believe the British Government have it in their power to do this. I realise that they listen to the pleas and stories from Captain O'Neill, the allegedly liberal Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, but I tell the Government Front Bench, and every hon. Member on this side of the House, that the present Prime Minister of Northern Ireland is getting away with a massive confidence trick. He comes to the Prime Minister here and says, "I would like to introduce reforms but, I am sorry, I have a crowd of backwoodsmen behind me and they prevent me from doing so. Give me another six months and I will do it" and then he says, "Give me another six months"—and another six months. As leader of the Unionist Party in Northern Ireland, he hopes that the British Labour Party will be defeated at the next election 1674 and then it will be quite unnecessary for him to introduce reforms.
If, unfortunately, this Administration were defeated—I certainly hope it will not be—the people in Northern Ireland who at present are asking in a constitutional way for reforms, would say, "We tried that method." People told me before I came to this House, "What is the use of going there and talking to a lot of Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen? They do not understand." I impressed on them that I am a Socialist and my Socialism knows no national barrier. I am as ardent as, perhaps more ardent than, any who sit on this side of the House.
I know that the British Labour Government would listen to pleas, made not only by me, but by many Socialists in Northern Ireland, urging the necessity to bring about those reforms before the lifetime of this Government expires. If that does not happen I predict that there will be trouble. I hope that I am wrong because I do not want to see trouble in Northern Ireland. When I predicted that it would happen, the Northern Ireland Prime Minister said that I was going out of my way to advocate the bomb, the bullet and violence. As a pacifist, I do not want to see violence, but I do not want to see the people trampled under by the jackboot Unionist Party.

Hon. Members
Sit down.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Belfast, West has not given way. Mr. Fitt.

§ Mr. Fitt
I wish to say how necessary it is that the British Government, even with all the problems they have in Vietnam, Rhodesia and the rest, should pay particular attention to the problem of Northern Ireland. I do not think that is asking too much. As a Socialist in a Socialist Administration I hope that in the very near future steps will be taken to remedy the existing situation in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. R. Chichester-Clark (Londonderry)
I had hoped that today we would have a constructive debate on the serious economic problems of Northern Ireland. This, unfortunately, has not transpired. I am bound to say at this juncture that the arrangement of business for today has 1675 proved unsatisfactory. I cast no blame or aspersion in any direction, although something must be said about the length of the speech by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt). On the other hand, I am sure that the Home Secretary will take a reasonable view of this matter and that the Government will come to the conclusion that this was not a reasonable day on which to hold a debate on Northern Ireland.
Unfortunately, many economic problems of Northern Ireland have not received the airing which they should have and I shall have to conclude my speech shortly in order to allow the Home Secretary time to take part. It is a matter of extreme regret that very little of a constructive nature on economic affairs was said by the hon. Member for Belfast, West. We should not have been surprised. The House will know that over the summer last year we had some trouble with what have been called Protestant extremists in Northern Ireland.
They were condemned in this House, and rightly condemned, for what they did. I was among those who condemned them, but I am in some doubt as to whether they have done so much more harm to good community relations in Northern Ireland than has the hon. Member for Belfast, West.[Interruption.] That is not irresponsible. There is no need to look beyond the terminological inexactitudes he employs in this House over and over again. There is no need to look beyond the speech he made in Trafalgar Square, which has been quoted in this House. He has been unable to deny it, despite his wriggling and writhing. There is no other interpretation of it. He called in aid the Belfast Telegraph and I do also, because that newspaper came to the same conclusion, that there is no possible explanation but that the speech must have been interpreted by many as a call to violence, an incitement.

§ Mr. John Ryan (Uxbridge)
I shared the platform with my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) in Trafalgar Square that day. I can state categorically that at no time did my hon. Friend make any plea for violence. He predicted violence if the normal constitutional paths were denied to the majority in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
That is not my interpretation of the hon. Gentleman's speech, nor is it the interpretation put upon the speech by the Belfast Telegraph, which wrote a perfectly responsible report.[HoN. MEMBERS: "He was there."] That may be, but the hon. Gentleman's recollection may be faulty. However, let me for the purposes of this argument accept the evidence, which I am sure was given in good faith, of the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Ryan). My case does not rest upon that alone. Although it may have passed unnoticed by some people at the time, the hon. Member for Belfast, West has said exactly the same thing before. He said it in a public speech in Strabane. Perhaps the hon. Member for Uxbridge was present on that occasion.
The hon. Member for Belfast, West said it even more effectively from the point of view of my argument when he spoke in Camden Town Hall. He knows, as I know, what Sinn Fein means in Northern Ireland. He knows that it is the political arm of the I.R.A., a body which caused no fewer than six deaths among the security forces in a recent campaign, millions of £s of damage, and injury to the person in many cases. The hon. Gentleman knows that. I know it. This is the report of the Camden Town Hall meeting: Mr. Fitt told the delegates that although he had always opposed the policy of the Sinn Fein, the policies of force, he was having second thoughts and was now wondering if this was the answer.

Hon. Members
Oh.

§ Mr. Fitt
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I intend to answer this. Prior to my election to this House, Sinn Fein had opposed candidates who had sought election on the abstention ticket. Sinn Fein did not want to recognise the authority of this House. Sinn Fein said, "What is the use of going to England? They do not understand. They will do nothing about it." I then said, in many public speeches up and down the country, that I had sufficient faith in British Socialists—

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I be allowed to resume my speech?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Mr. Chichester-Clark.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
May I resume my speech?

Hon. Members
No.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I am sorry. I intervened because I thought that the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) was addressing me on a point of order. The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) is making a very long intervention.

§ Mr. Fitt
I will make it very, very—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman has made a very long speech. I hope that he will end his intervention.

§ Mr. Fitt
I have been attacked, and I think that it is most unfortunate. Sinn Fein, the extreme Republican wing, asked, "What is the use of going to Westminster?" I impressed upon the electorate and upon those people that I believed in constitutional methods. Sinn Fein is now saying, "We told you so. Nothing has been done".

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
The hon. Member could, I suppose, wander on for ever and ever, but he will not produce and has not produced any satisfactory answer to what he said in this speech. The truth of the matter is that the hon. Gentleman is as irresponsible a public representative as has ever been elected to this House. This is beginning to be realised very widely indeed.
I want now, in the very brief time available to me, to come to some of the things the hon. Gentleman said. He spoke about the unemployment situation in Londonderry City. He spoke about the unemployment situation generally west of the Bann and said that this was an area which had been starved by the Unionists. No one knows better than the hon. Gentleman how untrue that is, because he knows full well that even in recent times—in recent weeks—considerable extra inducements have been offered by the Ministry of Commerce over there, no doubt with the sanction of the British Government, to any industrialist who is prepared to go over. Very generous terms indeed were offered to the great Michelin firm. This is well known. It has been said in public. A letter has appeared from the Ministry of Commerce to the Leader of the Opposition in Northern Ireland saving this. If the hon. Gentleman disbelieves this, he is 1678 at liberty to consult this firm or any others which have put out scouts in to these areas. I could go on. Indeed, currently, a very large international chemical firm is interested in this area. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that in the area which I have the honour to represent there is the largest industrial complex probably in the whole of Europe. This has been put there at great cost in terms of energy and—

§ Mr. Fitt
It is not in that city.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
It is just outside. I know the area better than the hon. Gentleman does. Furthermore, advance factories have been erected there. They are only waiting for tenants. There is a Government training scheme on which millions of £s have been spent. The hon. Gentleman knows all that. The same is true in the Strabane area and particularly in Enniskillen. My hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Lord Hamilton) knows this full well. I have the facts here. Unfortunately, there is not time to state them. I will show them to the hon. Gentleman.[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. As perhaps must be expected, this has been a very hard-hitting debate. I hope that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen will give consideration to listening to the argument.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
Even if the hon. Gentleman had not joined his voice with mine on previous occasions and asked for the continued operation of the Joint Anti-Submarine School at Londonderry, which employs between 600 and 700 men, I think that he could at least have asked for a postponement of its closure. Why has he not done so? Why has he not come out in public and supported me? Could it be because he is a Republican and not a Socialist at all? It is a very serious matter. Perhaps he will think that over. Maybe he was convinced on the merits of the Government's case. If so, let him say so, and let him say it in Northern Ireland. He had better think a little harder about that one.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will now support me in some of the other things which I had hoped that I would be able to deal with in a good deal more detail and which I had hoped to address ser- 1679 iously to the Home Secretary. As we are speaking of the North West and of Londonderry City in particular, I refer to the very old established shirt industry there. The hon. Gentleman mentioned it. He must have heard of the difficulties which are being experienced there in an industry which even in that region employs 5,000 people. This is a very considerable number in an area which has the highest unemployment rate in the United Kingdom. The industry is experiencing difficulties from the import of Portuguese shirts. The manufacturers there realise, as I do, that under the E.F.T.A. Agreement we have our obligations. It seems, at any rate to me, from a first look at the E.F.T.A. Agreement, that at least under Article 20 there is some chance that some kind of restriction—I am no protectionist —could, if thought desirable, be applied where there is an instance of high unemployment in a sector of an industry or in a particular region. This would appear to be the case. I know that representations are to be made to the Board of Trade in the near future. It will be for the Home Secretary to decide whether he can put his weight behind those representations.
I had hoped to raise with the Home Secretary the question of the increase in air fares to Belfast. The hon. Member for Belfast, West and I may share common ground here. This is a very considerable burden for an area which is physically detached from the rest of the United Kingdom. I say this in the knowledge that I am, I regret to say, representing these facts to a Government who must be said to be hostile to alternative services which have from time to time tried to start up in the last few years. I should like the Home Secretary closely to study this question.
I had also hoped to question the Home Secretary on the question of the Anglo-Eire Trade Agreement. I gave some warning on aspects of this about two years ago from this Box. The Home Secretary knows the effect that the Agreement has had on the meat trade in Northern Ireland, on the new meat plants there, and on the United Kingdom market as a whole. I hope that he will be able this afternoon to tell us something about what has happened at recent meetings between Mr. Blaney and the Minister of Agriculture in Her Majesty's Government.
1680 I also wanted to raise with the Home Secretary in particular questions relating to the high cost of cereals imported into Northern Ireland. I shall have to write a letter to the right hon. Gentleman on that matter. It is a problem which could well be—no matter which side of the argument one is on, one must face the facts—exacerbated by our entry into the E.E.C. It is a problem which we should be considering now.
I also wanted to mention certain problems connected with the pig industry, but I must not continue any longer and take up any more of the Home Secretary's time. I will write him a letter on the points which I have not been able to cover owing to the shortage of time.
A good deal has been said by the hon. Member for Belfast, West and by other hon. Members at other times about community relations in Northern Ireland and the desire to improve them. That desire is there. The improvement has been taking place. It will take place that much faster if it is realised that tensions of generations and scars of history take a long time to heal. People in public life can do a great deal by drawing attention to those things which unite a community, not just those which divide it, as so constantly the hon. Gentleman does.
Much has been done to smooth away the tensions, but, of course, there are still certain deep-seated fears in the community, as in any other. Mainly—the hon. Gentleman is on record himself as saying this on occasion—these fears arise from such problems as shortages of jobs and of houses. These are the main fears, and we in this House can contribute a great deal more than we have done if we face the fact that the tensions and difficulties which arise from history are exacerbated by social and economic conditions still apparent in Northern Ireland today. We can do something, despite what may have been said in the House at times about our having no control over what goes on in Northern Ireland. We have control to this extent, that we can encourage and help. I have not been able to go into the question of subsidisation but I shall be happy to answer the hon. Gentleman about that any time he wants.

§ Mr. Fitt
What about reform of the electoral system?

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
I shall not let the hon. Gentleman intervene again. He has talked enough. He knows perfectly well that reforms are taking place in the electoral system. That is another example of the hon. Gentleman failing to rise to appeals to him to be fair minded in these matters.
The House can do a great deal to encourage and help the Northern Ireland Government on its enlightened path of bringing prosperity not just to any one section of the community but to the whole of Northern Ireland, that prosperity which the people of Northern Ireland so rightly deserve.

§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Roy Jenkins)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) for sitting down at the time at which I suggested it might be for the convenience of the House if I were to reply. No one can pretend that we have had a full and exhaustive debate on this subject, though I must say that no representations were made from the other side beforehand that this was not an appropriate time for it. However, I note the comments which have been made about that.

§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)
A Supply Day?

§ Mr. Jenkins
Other points of that kind have been noted. It is traditional, when Northern Ireland is debated, for the Home Secretary to give some sort of review of the economic as well as other considerations. In trying to do this, I feel somewhat in the position of someone endeavouring to deliver a lecture on the battlefield, but I can assure the trenches on both sides that one advantage of the time is that the exigencies of the moment mean that it must necessarily be a very short lecture.
At the end of my speech, I shall say a word about certain broader issues. For the moment, I direct attention to economic affairs. The economy of Northern Ireland suffers in acute form from some of the problems which face some of the regions here in Britain. The pattern of existing industries has been steadily outdated. Unemployment is consistently at too high a level, and a complete restructuring of the economy of Northern Ire- 1682 land became necessary some time ago, the need being not only for more jobs and more factories, but also for a review of the essential infrastructure on which a stable and prosperous society has to be built—new housing and new towns, with all the environmental services going with them, new transport services both inland and for the sea and air journey to Great Britain—I note what was said about that—new skills for the working population requiring a massive effort of retraining and education.
There are some who would say that these things are of small importance compared with the divisions in society in Northern Ireland. In my view, while achieving a higher level of prosperity and welfare will not of itself heal these divisions, it will be more difficult to heal them without such a high level of prosperity and welfare, and, moreover, continuance of the economic handicaps can only serve to perpetuate and worsen the divisions.
What is being done? Two and a half years ago, the Northern Ireland Government commissioned the Wilson Report on economic development, and they said that they accepted it as their programme up to 1970. The economy of Northern Ireland, however, is part of a larger whole, and the general level of economic activity must depend on that ruling throughout the United Kingdom and on the broad conditions governing that level. Inevitably, the measures which we had to take in July 1966 have had their effect in Northern Ireland, as elsewhere, and Northern Ireland, as we all know, is vulnerable, like some other regions, in times of general economic difficulty. Northern Ireland has not gone unscathed. None the less, considerable efforts have been made by the United Kingdom Government to give economic assistance, by a Labour Government here in the United Kingdom—

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
And by the Government in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Jenkins
By a Labour Government here and by a Unionist Government, as I understand it, in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark
And the Conservative Government here.

§ Mr. Jenkins
And by a Conservative Government, no doubt, previously.
1683 Until the summer of last year, progress had been considerable, and, in the two and a half years up to June 1966, a total of 14,000 new jobs had been created in manufacturing industry alone. The level of unemployment, while still high by United Kingdom standards, was coming well down on that of previous years. It is rising again to unhealthy levels now. It was 7.5 per cent. for September, and 7.4 per cent. for mid-October, which is a slight improvement. However, without wishing to enter into detailed controversy about the position in the City and County of 'Derry, I recognise that in certain parts the position is very much worse than is indicated by an overall figure of 7.5 or 7.4 per cent. This is something which we cannot ignore.
At the same time, however, the total which will be spent on attracting new industry to Northern Ireland in the current year will be £31 million as against £24.7 million last year, which is an important factor. This money goes to Government-built factories, capital assistance grants of up to 50 per cent., for projects offering a reasonable return in unemployment terms, and grants towards initial operating costs. There is a fuel subsidy to offset higher transport costs. Grants are generally available on both plant and buildings, and industrial buildings also enjoy substantial derating. In addition, there is a large Government-sponsored training programme, and there is the additional premium for employment in manufacturing industries at the same rate as the regional employment premium in our development areas. Apart from assistance provided through the employment premium, there is close co-operation with us in Great Britain in steering industry to Northern Ireland, which is given no less priority than we attach to our own development areas. Likewise, Government contracts are awarded to firms in Northern Ireland on the same preferential basis as to firms in our own development areas. Government measures designed to alleviate problems of unemployment throughout the United Kingdom take particular account of Northern Ireland's problems, and there is very close co-ordination on regional planning policy in Britain with that being pursued in Northern Ireland.
1684 As a result, despite the short-term current difficulties, which are certainly real, considerable progress is being made to put the economy of Northern Ireland on a more satisfactory long-term basis. This is coming by the growing diversification of its industrial base, which has diminished emphasis on the traditional industries of agriculture, linen and shipbuilding, and the growth of new industries with good prospects for development such as motor components, electronics, man-made fibres and the like have been encouraging developments.
The traditional activities will undoubtedly have a major part to play. Agriculture remains the largest single sector of the Province's economy. There is need for a policy of amalgamation, for nearly half the farm holdings in Northern Ireland are too small to be regarded as full-time undertakings. The Agriculture Act of this year provides a scheme for 50 per cent. grants towards such amalgamations, and, in addition, the 1967 Annual Review has, in my view, been of considerable benefit to Northern Ireland agriculture in the increases in guaranteed prices for fat cattle and sheep and for milk and in a wide range of subsidies.
I mentioned the traditional industries of Northern Ireland. Shipbuilding is important to Belfast and the province as a whole. Not only does it employ a large labour force, but the availability of the work at the yards has repercussions on other industries. The industry there consists almost entirely of a single firm, Harland and Wolff, which has undergone thorough internal organisation. It has received a large loan from the Northern Ireland Government, conditional on reorganisation, and now looks forward for several years ahead to a steady programme of work. The recent Order for two super-tankers, the largest ever built in this country, was most encouraging.
The House will also have been glad to hear that the Ship Building Industry Board, which we set up to aid the development of the industry, has agreed to back the construction of a very large building dock at a cost of £8 to £10 million, of extended yard capacity to build tankers of 300,000 tons and more. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology has performed a very real 1685 service for Northern Ireland by the work he has been able to do there.

§ Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)
We are grateful, but I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the leader in the Business News section of The Times today, which points out that building tankers does not represent work for all the faculties in the yard. We need more work through British shipowners building container vessels and other such vessels in British yards.

§ Mr. Jenkins
I remember that when I was Minister of Aviation the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) always asked for more. It is worth-while to point out what has been done by the British Government, which is very considerable.
There is also the other great Belfast firm, Short Brothers and Harland, which the hon. Gentleman talks about a good deal and knows well. The House knows, from the statements made before the Recess by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology, that the firm is going through a very difficult phase, and requires considerable financial assistance from the Government. Shorts are implementing the recommendations of the detailed report on its aircraft division by a firm of management consultants and when this is complete, together with financial reconstruction, the aircraft division and the company as a whole, will we all hope, start into the future on a viable commercial footing. It is going ahead with the production of wings for the F28 and F228 and has entered into a contract with Rolls-Royce to design and produce pods for the RB 203 engine, and the British Government has made it possible for the Skyvan to continue in production.
I said earlier that a sustained attack on the economic difficulties of the region can make it much easier to solve the special social and political problems of Northern Ireland. People employed in a vigorous modern economy with a technological base which demands high management and other skills are less likely to be obsessed by old quarrels. There have been many criticisms of the administration of Northern Ireland. The general feeling of concern which underlies many, although not all, of those criticisms is something which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I share but we cannot simply 1686 put aside the constitution of Northern Ireland or ignore the historical facts which underlie the present position and present policy.
The Prime Minister told the House last April that he did not think that a Royal Commission to inquire into the administration of Northern Ireland was the answer. Under the Northern Ireland constitution, certain powers and responsibilties are vested in the Parliament and Government of Northern Ireland. Successive Governments here have refused to take steps which would inevitably cut away not only the authority of the Northern Ireland Government but also the constitution of the province. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend and I have not concealed from the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, with whom we have had continuing discussions, the concern felt here. I must add that we have not concealed on occasion our admiration for the courageous stand Captain O'Neill has taken on certain issues and at certain times.
The process of bringing about some rapprochement between Northern Ireland and the Republic is bound to be accompanied by mistrust and suspicion in the minds of many people on both sides. But a start has been made, and no one should underrate this easing of relations as a contribution to the essential problem of easing community relations in Northern Ireland itself. I believe that nearly everybody in the House—certainly everybody on this side, but also many hon. Members opposite—wants to see rapid progress in that direction. After all, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. That is its raison d'être as an entity. It exists because of its desire to be part of the United Kingdom, but that unity can have little meaning unless we work towards common economic and social standards and common standards in political tolerance and non-discrimination on both sides of the Irish Sea.
There is room for argument—and we have heard a good deal this morning—about the pace which is practicable or desirable. But we must at least be satisfied about the direction. Provided we can be so satisfied, there is a great deal to be said for not trying to settle the affairs of Northern Ireland too directly from London.
1687 Before this Government was formed, I spent a good deal of my time studying and trying to write about 19th-century and early 20th-century history. No one can undertake detailed studies of that period of British history, as many other hon. Members have, without being left with the conviction that despite the many attributes of the English a peculiar talent for solving the problems of Ireland is not among them. I believe that I might carry my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) with me in that statement. I think that it may be true of the North as well as the South.
Few issues in the past have shown a greater capacity to divert and dissipate the reforming energy of left-wing British Governments than deep embroilment in Irish affairs. But all that is subordinate to the desire—indeed, determination—that most of us have to see the making of real economic, social and political progress. There are at present reasonable grounds for hope, and I trust that they will not be disappointed.

§ Mr. Ben Whitaker (Hampstead)
. Does my right hon. Friend agree that discrimination on religious grounds is as abhorrent as that on racial grounds, which my right hon. Friend is in the forefront in condemning? Will he consider including it in forthcoming legislation?

§ Mr. Jenkins
It would raise not the issue of whether religious discrimination is as abhorrent as racial discrimination, on which I agree with the proposition put forward by my hon. Friend, but the question whether one was to apply to Northern Ireland legislation that would normally be domestic to Great Britain. While different views can be held against this, it would be to put a quite different interpretation on the constitution of 1920 than hitherto.

§ Mr. Stratton Mills (Belfast, North)
In the few remaining minutes, I welcome the Home Secretary to his first debate on Northern Ireland and would like to say, as one who admired his book on Dilke, how much we enjoyed the delicacy of his words on the influence of Englishmen and those of the Parnellite group who encouraged Englishmen to take an interest in affairs in Ireland as a whole.
The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) suggested that the movement 1688 towards better relations in Northern Ireland was phoney. I wish to refer to the speech made by Mr. Robert Thompson, President of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, last 23rd May, who paid tribute to Captain O'Neill for his stand against the forces of reaction, and to a speech by Mr. Herbert Moffatt, a respected trade unionist, at the annual conference of the Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers, who said: There is a spirit of co-operation abroad today among ordinary folk in Northern Ireland. It is unfortunate, and I hate to say it, that when some Labour M.P.s come to visit us, rather than cement the friendly relations between our people we find the opposite to be the case. I would also refer to remarks made by the Reverend J. McGarvey, parish priest of St. Mary's, Limavady, who said to Captain O'Neill on his visit to St. Mary's school there: Your visit is evidence of your genuine desire to sponsor good relations throughout the country. There are many other quotations that I could give.[Interruption.] I think that the hon. Member's remarks from a seated position—