YOUTH SERVICES

HC Deb 20 March 1967 vol 743 cc1372-98

7.56 a.m.

Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee (Wokingham)

I make no apology for moving from a very important national subject to one of what I might loosely call a more homely nature. I am much obliged to the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science for being courteous enough to be in his place at eight o'clock in the morning for our brief discussion on the youth services.

I think I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) say that there had been no opportunity in this Parliament to discuss the subject he raised. That is also true of the whole subject of education. It is very massive, and there are so many claims on the time of the Secretary of State and those who work under him that I am sure that the Under-Secretary will agree that it is very difficult to find time for a discussion on the youth services. Yet they are an important part of the Department's work. I am sure that he will welcome an opportunity to say something about progress being made.

I do not propose to raise individual and detailed matters. If I refer to a project here and there I do not expect the hon. Gentleman to deal with them in detail. That is not the debate's purpose. I want to put before him one or two of the kind of problems affecting those like him and me who are interested in the subject.

I start with one which at first sight appears to have no relevance to the matter in hand, but is in fact very close to it, although he has no Ministerial responsibility for it. That is the effect of the Selective Employment Tax. The hon. Gentleman will be tempted to reply that I am well and truly off beam, because voluntary organisations, being charities, are exempt from that tax. But does he realise that the imposition of the tax on small charitable bodies is hard? If he does, will be make representations to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the short time available?

One first pays the tax and then claims repayment. For example, the organisation with which I am connected does not run large balances of money out of which to draw those sums, which are large in our terms, and then obtain repayment of the tax. It was largely because of pressure from this side of the House that the Chancellor exempted charities from S.E.T. If he could find a method of avoiding the need for the payment, even though it is repaid later, it would be a great help.

I say with great regret that the tax's effect is to make us all into criminals in the youth service. In the small boys' club of which I am chairman, we have, in common with so many other clubs of a similar nature, a wonderful "lady what does". Until the tax came into force she came 10 hours a week to clean those youth service premises. If she went on doing that we should have had to pay full S.E.T. for her. It has been decided that she need only do eight hours a week, but in consideration of her long and faithful service her rate of salary has been increased.

I felt much ashamed as we concocted this innocent little plan to save a worthwhile club a proportionately substantial sum of money a year in order legally to get round the application of the S.E.T. I do not think it is a very good introduction for young people into the workings of our tax system when they have to take part in making decisions of this kind. If the hon. Gentleman feels that he could persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Budget to exempt such bodies completely from the application of the tax it would be much appreciated.

The main question now is whether the hon. Gentleman will give a report on the impetus set originally by the Albemarle Report. I remember the interest and excitement in 1960 when the Report was published and the Youth Service Advisory Council was set up. I had a small attachment to the hon. Gentleman's Department at the time and I remember the immense sense of achievement and interest of the early 1960s. It would be helpful if he could give a progress report for the last two years, for example.

This really stems from the public announcement that the hon. Gentleman was going to have a review committee which would go into the progress of the Youth Service, particularly as far as Ministerial responsibility was concerned. That seems to have disappeared somewhat. We do not seem to have heard about it lately. I see that the hon. Gentleman makes a rude face at me. This is the opportunity for him to bring the position more fully into the open. Those working in the Youth Service do not seem to have heard a great deal of what the Committee has been up to and it would help if he could explain how he feels that progress is being made and whether the impetus is being maintained.

The importance of the Albemarle Report was that for the first time the country began to appreciate on a worthwhile scale the needs in youth work and became corporately interested and concerned in making progress in this work.

There is a sense of anxiety about building projects which the hon. Gentleman's Department is able to authorise at present. I have the figures with me. For 1964–65, the figure was £4.5 million for the Youth Service building programme, rising in 1965–66 to £6.4 million. Sadly, in 1966–67, there is a dip to £4.5 million, with £4.8 million in 1967–68. Local education authority expenditure is, admittedly, at over £10 million in this work, but for 1967–68 and 1968–69 the estimates have been reduced for rate support grant purposes. This is bound to affect the Youth Service considerably. There is great anxiety on the project side. If he could offer some hope for the future it would be greatly appreciated.

The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell)

Would the hon. Gentleman kindly tell the House the source of the figures he gives, since the maximum height of the building programme is, according to my recollection, much higher than anything we have ever reached?

Mr. van Straubenzee

I have had to copy these figures from the statistics. Obviously I must check them if the hon. Gentleman questions them. I am talking about the Youth Service Building Programme, and I have read them as being, for 1964–65, 4.5, for 1965–66, 6.4, for 1966–67, 4.5, and for 1967–68, 4.8.

Mr. Howell

It is with the 6.4 million that I hesitate to agree, at the moment.

Mr. van Straubenzee

I do not intend to mislead the hon. Gentleman, or the House. As a result of his intervention, I shall check that figure. I think that I have it right, but the hon. Gentleman has questioned it and I want to be certain.

I turn now to three individual matters. Of all the various new developments, one of the more interesting is what is called the Weekender Project. The House will recall that considerable public criticism has been directed at the activities of what is a very small number of young people at weekend resorts, particularly in the summer months, and the misbehaviour of a very small percentage of them.

In that connection, I want to give a word of warning to the hon. Gentleman. It is important for hon. Members generally to be careful not to brand an entire group of young people because of the activities of a select few. It is easy to fall into that trap in the case of the present difficulties at the London School of Economics, and it is equally easy when referring to the activities of a very small number of young people who go down to the coastal resorts at weekends.

I have no personal connection with the National Association of Youth Clubs, but its new project is a very interesting one. I understand that it is backed by the Carnegie United Kingdom Trust. No doubt the N.A.Y.C. has run into difficulty in organising the project. There are the inevitable anxieties of the local areas about whether the specific provision of adventure bases for young people will not entice into their seaside areas very undesirable youth. Though there have been teething troubles, the general concensus seems to be that the project is a good one and is meeting a useful need.

It points also to an aspect of which all who have had dealings with this kind of project are conscious, namely, the yearning of so many young people to get their teeth into something challenging. We live in almost too "comfortable" a world, and they yearn to do something which is challenging and demanding. I am sure that that accounts for the spread of so many of these kinds of projects.

The second matter which I raise is to ask whether the hon. Gentleman has any views to express about the way in which youth wings of schools are working out. This again is one of the more interesting developments. Hon. Members on both sides have been conscious that, in the past, we as taxpayers have provided enormous sums of money for school buildings which, taking the year as a whole or the day as a whole, are comparatively unproductive when looked at exclusively in financial terms.

One of the appalling problems is that immediately young people leave school the one building to which they do not want to return is the school building. They are grown up and they want to show their complete independence from that which they have come. A number of authorities have been building schools specifically designed to cope with the problem. For example, I have one building in my constituency—and I am sure that there are innumerable examples in other areas—which has a separate entrance for adults, with coffee bar facilities, which can be used by both adults and young people in the evenings.

I shall be very interested to hear whether the hon. Gentleman thinks that this concept is proving itself. I am told that there is one authority—which I shall not name because I am not certain of my authority in this—which is giving up the idea because it is finding that it does not work. I shall be surprised if this is so, and I shall be interested to hear whether the hon. Gentleman, drawing on the experience of his Department, is able to say whether an experiment of this kind, which I should have thought was a good thing, was working out. I am sure that we owe it to the taxpayers to make the fullest possible use of the immense investment which, quite rightly, we are putting into school building.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will say something about the training of leaders for voluntary youth organisations, and indeed statutory ones, too. I think that one of the most important changes arising out of the Albemarle Report was the establishment of a career structure and a proper salary scale for youth leaders. When I look back to the period prior to the establishment of the salary scale, I do so with some shame, because I think of the innumerable men and women who have given years of their lives to this work on a salary scale which was absolutely derisory measured in terms of the value of money in those days. It took us as a nation a long time to get some kind of order into their career prospects, but we now have this, and it would be very helpful to know how the hon. Gentleman views the work of the Leicester Training College, for example, how he sees its future, and whether he feels that it is meeting at least part of the immense need.

It has been represented to me that we ought to be moving on now to a two-year full-time training course, and I shall be glad to know whether the Department is considering this.

There is, I gather, some anxiety at the moment that authorities are having to manufacture "posts of responsibility", as they would be called in the education world, to cope with the problem of providing additional incentives to entice youth leaders to come to their areas. This seems to me to be an unfortunate development. It must be stressed very strongly that there is a grave shortage of youth leaders, and I do so now because one of the objectives of this short debate is to draw attention to the need in this sphere of activity, and it may be that by the very fact that the House is discussing it we shall draw it to the attention of some who might otherwise not have intended to take up this work.

Lastly, I want to stress most strongly my personal belief—not an exclusive belief at all—in the voluntary youth organisations. I must tell the hon. Gentleman that there is a feeling about—I think it is unjustified—that the bias of the Department is now weighted quite overwhelmingly against the voluntary youth organisations. I repeat that I do not believe that this is a fair belief, but I have here—and I take this merely as an example—the building programme for the youth service for the Inner London Authority which has been approved for the financial year which is about to start. It contains only one boys' club project in an area—and I am talking about the I.L.E.A. area—in which there are a number of projects ready with sponsors if they could be included in the programme. Local programmes approved by the hon. Gentleman's Department should be examined to make certain that there is no bias. There is a wealth of goodwill and generosity in the voluntary youth organisation, but if some of these projects are not incorporated in the pro- grammes, there is a danger that the source of this generosity will dry up. The thumbprint of the hon. Gentleman's Department is necessary. Very often, a contribution of grant aid is an essential prerequisite to getting a project off the ground. This is an important matter, on which I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make a progress report to the House.

8.16 a.m.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (West Lothian)

One important general problem is that of the hiatus between the enthusiastic boy or girl leaving school and what he or she finds in the outside world in respect of sport. What continuity of sport facilities can be provided for the school leaver? The hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) said that many do not want to return to school once they have left, but is this any longer true? The atmosphere of schools has improved beyond recognition in the last ten years, and I catch myself wondering whether there are the same objections to returning to the familiar buildings.

It will be to our advantage financially and in terms of resources if the facilities can be used at an optimum rate rather than under-used. Government policy is to make as much use as possible of school buildings for youth purposes. How much has been achieved? And, cannot the schools' athletics championships be extended to cover those who have recently left school? These are as difficult to organise, in England if not in Scotland, as the Olympic Games. It would be remiss not to pay tribute to the schoolteachers who give up many hours—often unsung—to do this.

What is my hon. Friend's view of full-time secretaries for the schools' athletics associations, and how much of the necessary, though mundane, secretarial assistance have the Government provided? To what extent can the activities of school physical education teachers be integrated with the activities of the A.A.A.? I drew attention in Adjournment debates in 1963 and 1964 to the associated question of national coaches for schools. We are asking for a smooth transition from school to club to try to overcome the hiatus.

On the subject of the Byers Committee, does my hon. Friend think that there is a case for the registration of young athletes? Should they—particularly those between 15 and 18—pay a fee? There is much to be said for even this nominal registration, and, even if only a small sum, a fee should be paid for those between 15 and 18. What is the Government's undertaking, if any, to the Byers Committee?

The House should be concerned about the whole question of national coaches because I think I am right in saying that only one person in 15 to take the national coaching course goes on in activities in the coaching sphere.

Because of the lateness of the hour, I will deal briefly with the question of the Amateur Athletic Association. There is a strong feeling that there is need for a United Kingdom A.A.A. and certainly the rivalry between the north and south, the midlands and Wales, has reached an undesirable pitch. The Minister will be aware of the great discontent that exists among many athletes over the way in which they are governed and especially at the idea of a self-electing body. One athlete went so far the other day as to call it a "self-electing breed". Does the Minister have any thoughts on the present state of athletics and the attitude of the athletes towards the way in which they are run, so to speak? If so, what does he intend to do about it? What is the Government's attitude, if it is proper to have an attitude?

Athletics in Britain must be grateful to our great newspapers—the Daily Express, the News of the World and others—which sponsor and run athletics tournaments. But for these newspapers I suspect that, in present circumstances, few tournaments would be held. At the same time, however, athletes are worried about the sponsorship of many events and I hope that my hon. Friend is looking into the whole question of sponsorship.

What lessons have been learnt from the sad circumstances in which Geoff Dyson, after 13 years, left for abroad in 1960, and has my hon. Friend any comment to make about the whole question of the conflict between coaching and the administration? Does he consider that the Government should do anything about this and, if so, what?

The Minister might also look into the question of the fees that are produced from the televising of athletic events. Is he satisfied that there is sufficient competition between the B.B.C. and I.T.V., remembering that even £3,000 or £4,000 is a valuable sum at a time when sport is in its present financial state, on the verge of bankruptcy? Could not more be done to encourage competition between the major television networks with a view to producing more money? In this connection, has my hon. Friend any views about the financial contribution to the women's A.A.A. and whether there should be more integration between the men's and women's A.A.A.?

In youth work much depends on the availability of facilities after four o'clock in the afternoon and particularly late at night. The question of floodlighting and how it should be financed has been raised, as has the question of all-weather surfaces. Although I have not been dogmatic about the other subjects I have mentioned, I am about this one. All-weather surfaces provide the one certain way of extending these facilities. Although the capital cost of providing all-weather surfaces is, on average, three times greater than making orthodox surfaces, it is a worth-while investment because these surfaces are long lasting and provide facilities throughout the year. Grass pitches at this time of the year are too often reduced to mud and slush and are completely unplayable. The sort of surfaces which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and I saw at Inverclyde are greatly to be encouraged because they are an example of what can be done in this country.

I would like to ask about the recommendations of the Sports Council for multi-purpose indoor sports centres, which are needed not only in the large towns and cities, but in many small communities. My hon. Friend might follow the recommedation of the Sports Council and investigate the conversion of small sports halls. My question arises from the Sports Council Report, page 15, paragraph 35: There are certain large-scale facilities, having a regional purpose, which by their nature will require the joint support of several authorities, e.g. The Broads. Lee Valley, Poles-worth and Aintree. The Sports Council and Regional Sports Councils are most interested in the development of such regional projects, but as the law stands at present, there are difficulties over the provision of finance from government sources towards schemes initiated by local authorities.' This is quite clearly a matter for legislation, and I ask my hon. Friend: does he, in the foreseeable future, see any possibility of bringing in this kind of legislation?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)

The hon. Member cannot ask for legislation on this debate.

Mr. Dalyell

May I ask my hon. Friend what he is doing to promote the success of the Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh in 1970. Many of us in central Scotland are extremely worried about what we read in the Press and hear about the athletics venue. Edinburgh Corporation have done a good job already in preparing for swimming events. We are determined that Scotland shall make a success of the games, and we are disturbed when three years before the Games we read conflicting reports that no decision has been made about the site for the athletics.

My hon. Friend might use this opportunity to say something about the preparation for the Olympic Games on which he has done a great deal of work. I hope that recreation, which has hitherto had rather a low place in the Government's priorities, will find a rather brighter place in the financial sun, and I wish my hon. Friend good fortune in his deliberations with the Treasury.

8.28 a.m.

Mr. Richard Crawshaw (Liverpool, Toxteth)

I welcome the opportunity to pay a tribute to the thousands who serve youth. Because youth services mean so much to them, some volunteers spend so much time doing this work that it is almost a full-time occupation. We are specially well served in this respect in Liverpool, and I pay tribute to these people. One should also remember those volunteers who have made it possible in so many of these places to build youth clubs. We have been very fortunate in Liverpool and I should like these people to know that they do not go unrecognised in this House.

I would not say that what one wanted from the Albemarle Report has been accomplished. It went forth with a blare of trumpets and it was thought that all had been solved, but anyone who thinks that the youth services do not resemble what they were before Albemarle deludes himself. There have been tremendous steps, but work has been held back by lack of finance. This is the main reason why we have not made the progress we hoped for when Albemarle was published.

Have our youth services the right objective? What is their purpose? One of their side purposes is to keep people out of trouble, or help to do so, but that is not their main purpose. The type of person who gets into the criminal courts is not the type who normally goes into a youth club, and it is that fact that worries me. We are spending considerable amounts of money yet do not seem to be touching the fringe of this class of people whom the youth clubs should primarily be serving.

One possible explanation for this state of affairs is that we still cannot devote money to clubs to cater for those of under school leaving age, but statistics show that more people land themselves in the criminal court in the 14-year-old group than in any other. If we are to make any impact on this problem at all we must get these people before they get to 14 or 15. It is too late once they have landed themselves in the criminal court. But the facilities are not there.

I know that many local authorities get round this difficult, but I am certain that it takes a good deal of ingenuity to get funds for organisations that cater for those who are under the school leaving age. I ask my hon. Friend to see whether it is not possible to devote money to those of even 12 years, and 13 and 14, so that we might be able to make some impact on them before they start landing themselves into trouble.

The other type of people who concern me are those who, whatever facilities may be provided, will not be found in clubs—we refer to them as the unclubbables. A tremendous amount of research has gone into this side of the problem, and whole volumes have been written about it. In one book I read of a worker who spent a whole year mixing with these people, but at the end of the year I do not think he could honestly say that one person had been got into the club, or was one iota better than he was at the beginning of the year. It is a terrible problem.

There is a ray of hope. From my experience of the younger people, I believe that basically they have still the same characteristics that we in our generation always hoped we had. As the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) said, if there is a sufficient challenge thrown out to people they will react to it. It is easy for a generation brought up in the excitement of war to decry those living in a peace-time society. Many of us had the opportunity of working off our enthusiasm legitimately working for our country, and we should bear that in mind when we find ourselves being unduly critical of those who do things they ought not to do. Many of them have done things that have landed them in the criminal court just because of a lack of outlet. These people want to prove themselves, just as everyone does.

Just for a moment I must turn to one of my pet hobby horses—the cutting down of the Territorial Army. The result of that reduction will be that there will be fewer facilities for these people, and the problem will not improve, but will get worse, for that very reason.

Should we not consider making a new approach in an attempt to get through to these people. All they are trying to do is to prove themselves. There should be many more weekend facilities for adventure courses. These people will respond to that sort of thing, when they think it cissy to sit in a club. Many local authorities are opening these youth adventure centres in places like Wales. With all respect, I suggest that if my hon. Friend paid more attention to such centres and provided more facilities for them, we might have a break-through.

We have opened several youth wings in Liverpool, but one always comes up against the difficulty that it is somebody's school and the headmaster does not like to think that when he goes home at tea-time others are coming into the school and are using the gym, perhaps even allowing people to run about without shoes or plimsolls. That is one of the difficulties. I believe that educational facilities should be used to the maximum, and they are certainly not being used to the maximum at present.

I can understand the arguments about school playing fields being over-used. There is a limit to the amount of use that can be made of playing fields without involving one in tremendous expense. But I was interested in the point made about all-weather surfaces and floodlighting. I think that we in Liverpool have got more value out of hard all-weather surfaces and floodlighting per £1 spent than anything else. Young people can always come in and kick a ball about on an all-weather surface.

I conclude by saying that there is a tremendous amount of work still to be done on the youth services At the moment we are only touching the fringe of what can be done. Anything spent on the youth services saves money out of all proportion later on, because the facilities provided enable people to use their energies for proper purposes; and if we do not do that there is only one alternative, and who can blame them?

8.37 a.m.

Mr. Frank Judd (Portsmouth, West)

I do not want to detain the House very long, but two of my hon. Friends this morning have referred to the need for premises and there have been references to the Territorial Army. I am certain that one of the things the Minister should be looking at is the use of former Territorial Army premises for youth activities. It would be a wonderful purpose to which these centres could be put.

The main emphasis of my remarks is to remind the House that it is impossible at this juncture to talk of youth without referring to the revolutionary change in emphasis from service to youth to service by youth which has been taking place in recent years. We have all heard of the great upsurge in interest, not limited to this country, whereby young people, given the opportunity, want to seize the chance of playing a full and positive part in social service to the community. Sometimes the more dramatic work in the developing countries for a small, select and fortunate body of young people, able to go out for one or two years, tends to overshadow and push to one side the equally interesting work going on in this country.

I had the good fortune to work professionally for more than seven years with one of the organisations involved, International Voluntary Service, and I witnessed during those seven years the increasing number—up to the point of thousands of young people—who every weekend are going out to do jobs in their local neighbourhood, or who in their school holidays or in their holidays from work undertake voluntary services. But International Voluntary Service is only one of many such organisations. There is Community Service Volunteers, Task Force, Toc H, and one could go on. There are also countless organisations operating purely at local level and inspired purely by local initiative.

I think it would be relevant to give some illustrations of the sort of work being done, either at weekends or perhaps in the summer holidays. For example, young people come together in a particular city and go out in groups to decorate the homes of elderly or handicapped people. Or in their holidays, some may go to a mental hospital which is short of staff, and perhaps work with the patients to build improved sporting facilities and mix with the patients. Quite as important as any practical services rendered will be the psychological contribution which they make to this institution in bridging the gap between the separate life of the inmates and the world outside.

Some of the friendships and changes in atmosphere which have been wrought by this kind of project cannot be praised too highly. One finds young people staffing holiday centres for the elderly. There is nothing better than for old people to go to the seaside or the country and be looked after by young people sharing their lives, providing concerts in the evenings, dressing them, feeding them and taking them on excursions. In a more dramatic setting, one also finds young volunteers going to remote rural districts of Scotland and working on projects which otherwise would not be economically possible, providing water supply schemes and even electricity supply schemes in the Shetlands for small isolated communities.

Only one thing has held back even greater development of this dramatic, exciting work. That is shortage of money. The Department of Education and Science has understood the value of this new development and wants to find every means of assisting it. I counsel the Minis- ter to be extremely careful that in providing this assistance he does not allow the Department's new-found interest to misfire. We must question what the objectives of community service by young people exactly are. Is the idea simply to keep them off the streets? That is a completely negative concept which misses the whole opportunity. Is it on the other hand a new form of social education for those participating? If we are to recognise its full value we will surely see it as a unique form of education for those participating.

We must be careful to bring the operation to the point where it is not dealing only with the periphery of social problems but where all relevant Ministries, Government Departments and non-statutory bodies which have suitable opportunities to offer consider what is the main stream of activity in which they can involve young people. For example, the new Highland Development Board, one hopes, would plan from its earliest days to involve young people in projects which could not otherwise be financed. One hopes that the Home Office will give high priority to seeing how it can help to bring about racial reconciliation through the practical work of young people where there is racial tension.

There must be variety and a large number of differing organisations in order to enable young people to feel personally identified with the operation in which they are involved. It would be extremely sad if there were a pitfall which led to paralysis of this new development in the same way as we have seen paralysis of so much of one traditional youth service through institutionalisation. We must have both small local sensitive units and also variety at one national level. If this work is to succeed it will depend on the good will and active support of a large number of people at all key points in society. If we are to give the work the boost it deserves, one of the things which the Minister and the Department must do at an early stage is to call an absolutely representative round table conference to which all those affected and involved can come to analyse how far the operation has gone, discuss how much further it can now go and ways in which all concerned can co-operate more effectively with increased governmental support. I want to refer briefly to the international aspects of this activity.

We are pleased to note that we have a Government devoted to the principle of promoting international understanding. There is no better way of promoting international understanding among young people than to get them side by side on practical projects of service to the community of the kind I have described. I do not want to be sentimental, but I will tell the House of something I witnessed while I was working with International Voluntary Service. The Parliamentary Secretary will be interested to know that it was a project which took place in Birmingham. There were 32 young volunteers on the project, living in a church hall and sleeping on the floor. They went out each day in small groups redecorating the homes of elderly and handicapped people.

After one group had completed a job, I witnessed what frequently happens. An old lady came on to the pavement to try to thank the volunteers and in doing so broke down and cried. This may sound sentimental, but people with experience of this work know that this is something frequently witnessed by these young people. When they think about it and analyse why the old lady was unable to express her thanks articulately and broke down and cried they realise that it is perhaps the first time for weeks, months and even years, spontaneous interest has been shown in her by young people who want to share her life—not simply by the devoted professionals who carry the main responsibility on behalf of society.

I went back to base that evening and a discussion was taking place. A volunteer from Scandinavia said that Britain claimed to be a modern society. He asked how it was that in our second largest city people suffered these shameful physical conditions. A volunteer from Spain said that while he realised that standards might be bad by Northern European standards, they compared favourably with conditions of many people in his country.

Perhaps the most telling comment of all came from a volunteer from Asia. He was speaking for many young people from abroad willing to participate in projects with British youngsters, and also for young British volunteers working in their holidays abroad. He said that he found it difficult to get to know Britain. He was taken to tea parties given by the well-meaning British Council, where there were 30 overseas students and two or three British hosts. He had found that on set tours he could only look at Britain's surface. This project had showed him Britain below the surface—he had seen our seamy side—and he had come to understand us so much better. He regarded Britain in a completely new light. He had been able to contact us in a way he had not before thought possible. He said that he came from a country where millions suffered far worse standards than those he had seen on the project, but that in our modern community he could not understand how the family had come to mean so little, especially to elderly and handicapped people living in poor conditions, alone forgotten and completely isolated.

The point I am making is that in these projects young people lose their inhibitions and national identification. They look at a problem together and analyse a situation in a completely uninhibited way. They find a common concern. I hope that as the Department encourages the development of community service by young people—and I know that it will—it will give high priority to supporting the development of this work in an international context.

8.50 a.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell)

I agree with the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) that the debate has produced even at this hour, a very fascinating discussion on some of the problems which affect the youth service and sport. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Toxteth (Mr. Crawshaw) asked what the objectives of the youth service are. Although I ought not to spell these out in great detail at this hour of the morning, I agree that the youth service is not a first aid service, a net to catch all those who may be falling from society. It is much more positive than that. It is concerned with the development of the whole personality of individuals in our society and that point of time in their lives when they need help in reaching maturity and in finding a sense of maturity themselves.

I subscribe to the view expressed by the hon. Member for Wokingham and others that the present generation of young people is as idealistic and as fine a generation as we have ever had. So it ought to be. If it were not so, we would have wasted much effort and money on education services. I rejoice that this is so.

I well take the point of the hon. Member for Wokingham that, amidst all the references to students at the L.S.E. and to youth in general—from time to time one has to deal with activities with which one does not entirely agree—the point must be made that these are the activities of a very small minority. The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that in a recent speech, which I think he was possibly charging me with, I used those exact words, although I am sorry to say that they did not find their way into the newspapers.

The hon. Gentleman asked me some technical questions about the effect of the Selective Employment Tax on the youth service. I think that I came to the House prepared to deal with almost every subject on the youth service, but, to be honest, not the effect of this tax. I will consult my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the points the hon. Gentleman raised, though it seemed that he was mentioning a real hardship which would apply in the first instance to some of these youth charities but that after the first rebate had been paid to them this might well ease itself.

The hon. Gentleman asked me in the main for a progress report and a review of the situation within the youth service. I have just reconstituted the Youth Service Development Council, which is there to advise me. I have decided since, as the responsible Minister, I assumed the chair of this body that it should be brought more into the Government's confidence. It should be asked to consider much more deeply than had been the case the problems of the service. I got the impression when I inherited the chair that the Council had been far too superficial in the things it had been looking at. Since I wanted the Council to do this fundamental job, I thought it right to make it the permanent reviewing body for the service as a whole.

Hon. Members are correct that, for the service as a whole, not only is this a time of tremendous change, but there is a great need for ever-changing thought about the role of young people and the role of the service to meet it. This is a very difficult thing, because the voluntary bodies which have done great work—I acknowledge what the hon. Gentleman said about this; I have over the years played no small part, I hope, in voluntary bodies and organisations in service—tend to get institutionalised. Although one expects them to give a lead in pioneering new techniques and ideas, they do not always do so. They started in a revolutionary frame of mind, but perhaps they are like most of us in the House. We start off as revolutionaries, but we do not often end our careers as such.

Mr. Judd

Would my hon. Friend agree that this most interesting change to which he has referred was pioneered entirely by voluntary organisations?

Mr. Howell

Oh, yes, I think that many changes are pioneered by voluntary bodies. I am coming back to his fascinating speech very shortly, and because I believe that there is a need for constant re-thinking about our position I have decided that the Development Council should be the permanent body and that, from its 18 members, we should establish working groups to look at specific problems. In this way we can make the greatest contribution to new thinking in this service.

The first body set up was concerned with the opportunities for young people to give service in society. This has been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) and, knowing his great interest in the exciting field of the youth service, I am sure he appreciates this service by young people. The committee under the chairmanship of Mr. Gordon Bessey reported about a year ago to the effect that it was thought that there was an opportunity to have youth service groups throughout the whole country, perhaps with the aid of the Government.

I am ready with proposals, having taken very fully into account those organisations which have pioneered this sort of work, and I am about to consult the trades unions and the local authorities. All I say this morning is very much in line with the philosophy of my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West. It is that there needs to be tremendous variety. He said that variety was essential and I agree with him to the full. We must remember that each member of the service is an individual, and each will be attracted by a different type of service. For instance, some will choose work in hospitals; some in helping the old; some going overseas, and some working with immigrants. There will be no lack of variety of approach, and my proposals are designed to create opportunities where none exist at present. They are designed to do it by helping the existing organisation to expand so that their expertise can be made even more widely available to those youngsters who wish to contract for this sort of work.

I shall certainly consider the idea of having a round table conference, as has been suggested, at a suitable time, and I shall bring in the organisations which are in the field. The second group, which I think will report this coming weekend, has worked on immigration in relation to the Youth Service; how to help immigrants in this country to become established in our society, and the role which the Youth Service can play. Lord Hunt has been in the chair, and, as one who served on the Albemarle Committee, I can say that I understand that the Hunt Report on Immigration, is longer on the first draft than the whole of the Albemarle Report. I believe in brevity and expedition. I am now having a second go at trying to cut down the size of the report so that it appears in manageable proportions. I think that shall all be grateful for that.

The other question which has been raised is the age range. This touches on the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Toxteth about what we want the Youth Service to do. The present Youth Service age range of 14 to 20 is quite unreal. I accept much of what my hon. Friend said about the need to go into the schools. One of the reasons that we are possibly failing in the Youth Service is that we are trying to do too much in one age band—14 to 20. Young people at the top end of that age range find very little identity with the people at the bottom end of that age range. It therefore seemed to me that both ends of the Youth Service age range should be examined.

I have one committee under Mr. Fair-bairn, Deputy Director of Education for Leicestershire, looking at the Youth Service in relation to the schools. It has just started its work. It will look at the use of school buildings and the relationship of the Youth Service with the formal educational services. In particular, we are looking at the age of 14 as the minimum age and considering whether it should go down, at what age the Youth Service should commence and its relationship to formal education.

When the Hunt Committee has completed its work in a month or so, I shall hope to have a further working group under the chairmanship of Mr. Fred Millson, Senior Lecturer in youth work at the West Hill Training College. It will consider at the top end of the Youth Service age range the relationship of the Youth Service to the community as a whole. This will automatically bring into question the ending of the age range at 20. If, as might well happen, one of these committees reports that youth work should start before 14 and the other reports that it should not be formally regarded as ended at 20 and therefore there should be an expansion of the service, an interesting situation would arise which should be welcomed. I am sure that within the Youth Service band there must be two levels of people to whom we try to give service—between, say, 12 and 16 and then from 17 onwards. This would mean two distinctly different levels of service.

This allows me to make an interesting point which I wanted to make about the sponsorship of youth clubs and particularly boys' clubs. I have great regard for the boys' clubs work which is performed in our society. It is increasingly plain that much of their work is specifically for boys—which is to say the obvious. By that I mean that it ceases to attract young men of the late teenage group. It is extremely important that the Youth Service should have an attraction for them.

I was interested in what was said about the sponsorship of youth clubs. We can only authorise building projects for youth clubs which appear in a local authority's priority list. The boys' club movement in London has done reasonably well over the years. We would all like it to do better. Why is it that businessmen and sponsors can easily be found to create clubs to keep boys off the streets when we cannot find anybody interested in keeping girls off the streets? That is a real problem because the National Association of Youth Clubs, which is a large voluntary organisation dealing with mixed club work, does not operate in the same way as the Federation of Boys' Clubs and does not go in for building capital projects but sees itself more as a servicing organisation. There is a great gap.

I think that that is why local authorities are more and more moving into the field. That is the only way in which we shall get clubs for girls established and, in particular, have mixed clubs working. It is self-evident that one of the reasons one sees a great falling off in the number of boys over the age of 17 and 18 in boys' clubs is that there are no girls there. Bringing boys and girls together in a good, wholesome atmosphere seems to me to be one of the great needs of our society and one of the tasks of a relevant youth service.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the building programme which, in my recollection, has been running at about £4½ million a year. We expect it to rise to about £5 million a year and be maintained at that level.

A question concerning me at present about the future of the youth service is what our priority should be. Given that we have only a limited amount of resources for the service, do we continue to put them into bricks and mortar, or should there be a change into the servicing organisations and the servicing of young people in many ways, as I was very properly urged to do by my two hon. Friends? Inevitably we must reach the conclusion that perhaps rather less of our resources should go into bricks and mortar and that more should go into the training and quality of youth leaders, which the hon. Gentleman also asked for, and the general servicing of youth.

The Albemarle Committee said that it hoped that we should have 1,300 full-time youth leaders by 1966 and I am glad to tell the House that that target was reached, mostly thanks to the Leicester Training College, which provides a one- year course. The hon. Gentleman asked whether a one-year training course is enough, and suggested that we should look at two-year courses. I agree, and I go further and say that we must consider the question of three-year training courses. I am making sure that the Department considers that. If I am right about the general principles I suggested earlier, it seems to me that if we change the emphasis within the service we need the youth leader to become a real professional in every sense. His or her status as a professional depends considerably on the amount of training he or she has had, and on how that training compares with that in other professions, such as teaching, the social services and so on. We are beginning to do a great deal of thinking about this in the Department. It is only at a very early stagy and if any organisation wish to make a contribution to our thinking on the matter we shall be happy to see them.

I was asked about school youth wings for both sport and the youth service. That is very dear to our hearts, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has initiated new thinking in the Department about the whole question of use of capital resources. I have made speech after speech—and am glad of the opportunity again today—saying that as a nation we cannot afford to have expensive capital equipment, i.e., our schools, school buildings, gymnasiums and playing fields, standing idle for so much of the year. As far as possible we want to see that that does not happen in the future, that communal parts of our schools such as the halls, gyms and dining rooms are built in such a way that they can be used by the community as a whole while the class room blocks and so on are located away from these facilities.

I move now to the questions posed by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell). He put eighteen points and I shall do my best to deal with them, although rapidly. They were searching questions. He referred to the schools athletics championships. He will be delighted to know that one of the things I was determined upon when appointed Minister with responsibility for sport was that school sports organisations should be encouraged. Now, for the first time, not only can we pay tribute to the tremendously enthusiastic band of school teachers who give their service voluntarily week in and week out to make school sports successful for hundreds of thousands of scholars but at long last are to give some financial help to them as well.

Many teachers have not only given their services but have done so out of their own pockets. In athletics, we have been able to make a grant of £300 a year in the last two or three years towards their administrative costs and if they want to put proposals for full time secretaries of school sports organisations we shall be happy to consider them, as we do all other suggestions from school sports organisations.

The same applies to national coaches. This is a thorny subject. The schools themselves believe it more important to have the expertise of the teacher rather than the expertise of the sports coach but where one could combine the two obviously this would be a sensible arrangement. We are also encouraging the school sports organisations for the first time in their international work and the Department is considering the possibility of a grant to help to send an English international team to Florence.

My hon. Friend asked many questions about the senior athletics and the A.A.A. He had read an excellent article by Chris Brasher in The Observer which raised many of these points. But perhaps I should say a collective word about them. These are really not a matter for me or for the Government. There is a delicate balance to be maintained between the Government's initiative in sports needs and where the rights of the governing bodies of sport begin.

This often gets me into trouble. I am often asked, for example, to deal with things like apartheid in sport, about which I have the strongest feelings and where I would like to do something. But I am not the dictator of sport or the director of the 200 governing bodies and I have no more right to tell them what they must do than any other citizen. I have to be careful to keep the delicate balance I have described. My job is to encourage sports organisations in every way I can to make themselves more efficient and to follow reasonable policies but 1 cannot go beyond that point.

The A.A.A., with some help and encouragement from the Government, has decided that the best way to look at its many problems would be to appoint its own committee of inquiry and I have shown my support by agreeing to finance the servicing of that inquiry—paying for secretarial help, and so on—and giving some advice when asked about its scope.

The Committee will look into all questions of sponsorship, the relationship of women's athletics to men's athletics and whether we want three athletics organisations or a United Kingdom organisation. It will look at all aspects of sport and it would be wrong for me now to express opinions on which a high-powered committee is about to begin work on the subject.

Mr. Dalyell

I have been talking widely to athletes concerned. Would my hon. Friend make it clear that the Government, because they give a grant to the A.A.A., have no direct responsibility for its actions? Many athletes feel that because of this financial relationship there is some Governmental responsibility.

Mr. Howell

I am glad of the opportunity to make it clear that, although we give a large grant to the Amateur Athletic Association, we accept no direct responsibility for anything which it does; nor do we wish to do so. It is exactly the same point as the M.C.C. in respect of Basil D'Oliviera.

In the last two years, the relationship between the Government and the sports bodies has improved vastly, and now there is a very real partnership. But it is not a partnership in which we want to dominate. We try to help stimulate and encourage sports bodies, but we have no responsibility for their decisions in respect of sporting judgments.

Another point which has been raised is that of multi-purpose sports centres and regional projects, and there is the associated point about all-weather floodlit pitches. We are very keen on multipurpose indoor sports centres. One of the fascinating features about which I have been arguing is that, in spite of our weather, we make no provision for sport to be played in the dark nor on days when it is wet.

For several months of the year, we know that it will get dark early, and we have a lot of rain. In spite of that, we do not provide all-weather pitches, we do not floodlight them, and we close our public parks for most of the year at the very times when people coming from factories, shops and offices want to use the facilities which exist there. There is a lot of pioneering work to be done. If we think of the need for a recreational leisure service, many of the decisions of individual local authorities and sports bodies will begin to fall into place in respect of those matters.

As my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian mentioned, there is difficulty about grant aiding regional projects. He quoted the views of the Sports Council, in its first Annual Report. I am well aware of that difficulty. I want regional sports projects, and it follows, therefore, that is a matter which concerns me.

I come finally to the Commonwealth Games which will be held in Edinburgh in 1970. I am sure that the House will agree that this will be a sporting festival of tremendous international importance. I went to the last Commonwealth Games and, apart from the quality of the sports which I say, I was extremely impressed by the bringing together of all the nations of the Commonwealth, united in this purpose.

I said to many people who asked for my views that, when one looked at all the Commonwealth countries marching into the stadium, it was the first time that the Commonwealth became a living reality. There they all were, assembled on the field of sport. One of the great justifications of sport is that it unites the nations, and far more international good comes from sports than the odd difficult situation which is created.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland recently met the Edinburgh authorities, and he and I will keep in touch. At an earlier stage, with representatives of the Sports Council, I went to Edinburgh to look at various sites which were available. We are determined to see that the Games are successful, and we have every confidence that they will be.

We have been able to take two major decisions which will help to ensure the success of the Games, and those were the two which were given priority by everyone on the spot. The first was that the provision of residential accommodation in the university should be advanced in the building programme. That has been done, so that there is no doubt that the wonderful campus of Edinburgh University will be available for the Commonwealth athletes to use.

Secondly, there will be a special catering block. This was due to be built in the 'seventies, but we have been able to bring it forward to next year, and it will be ready in time for the Games because we know that the Commonwealth Games Committee attaches great importance not only to the success of the Games, but to mixing socially, and all that follows from that, and providing communal recreational and feeding arrangements. Thus, the two decisions which we have been able to take will be of considerable help.

I think that this has been an extremely useful debate, even at this hour. It has been extremely wide-ranging, and I hope that the House will forgive me if I have missed one or two points, but I have done my best to deal with all the matters that were raised.