HC Deb 13 February 1967 vol 741 cc94-6
36. Mr. Atkinson

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will move a sessional order to provide for the experimental limitation of the length of speeches on the lines of the recommendation in paragraph 8 of the First Report from the Select Committee on Procedure.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman)

I ask my hon. Friend to await a further debate on procedure when I may have proposals to put forward on this point.

Mr. Atkinson

Has my right hon. Friend made an analysis of the length of time taken by hon. Members during the first six months of this Parliament? If he has, he will discover that the chance of every hon. Member taking part in a main debate is one in 5½ years. If every hon. Member wished to exercise his right to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, it works out that each Member would have that chance every 5½ years. Does not my right hon. Friend think that the time has come to change this practice?

Mr. Crossman

I agree with my hon. Friend that that is a statistical argument in favour of our once again discussing the matter, but, as I made plain in the debate on procedure, I think that it is best tackled in conjunction with the debate on Standing Order No. 9.

Mr. Wingfield Digby

Would the right hon. Gentleman make available in the Library an edition of Sessional Orders and an edition of Standing Orders as amended by Sessional Orders? That is not available to hon. Members at present.

Mr. Crossman

That is a different question and an interesting idea. I will certainly consider it if the hon. Member puts down a Question about it.

Mr. Chapman

Since this was a unanimous recommendation of the Committee on Procedure, would it not be a good idea to try it out first of all at morning sittings? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am only asking for experiments, and it is time we had a few in this place. Secondly, as well as limiting speeches in morning sittings, would it not be a good idea to give Mr. Speaker the chance to limit them on days when he is very heavily pressed by the number of hon. Members who want to speak?

Mr. Speaker

Order. Questions are already limited in length.

Mr. Crossman

I think that our single experiment is working quite satisfactorily.[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] As for my hon. Friend's other suggestions, I ask him to await the debate on procedure. I do not think that it would be in order for me to put forward proposals without having heard the views of the House on the recommendations of the Select Committee.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

In considering this matter, would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that rigid limitations on the time of speeches will kill the Parliamentary practice of giving way to interventions and also expose exponents of unpopular points of view to the dangers of sustained interventions?

Mr. Crossman

I am aware that there are many points of view in the House. I have my own ideas. I think that we should await a debate on the Report of the Committee, and then after the debate I shall make up my mind what we shall do.

Mr. Wellbeloved

Would my right hon. Friend consider the recommendation for a limitation of speeches and would he further agree that voluntary restraint on the part of back-bench Privy Councillors would greatly assist other back-bench Members in obtaining a fair share of the available time?

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Crossman

From the response of hon. Members it will be realised that there are strong feelings on the subject, which have been ventilated more than once. Seriously, I think that there are proposals in the last remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman), about the possibility that Mr. Speaker could use his discretion, which we have to consider, but I think that this is a subject that we need to discuss.

Mr. Shinwell

rose—

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Shinwell

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have spoken only once during this Session?

Sir G. Nabarro

The right hon. Gentleman makes his speeches upstairs.

Mr. Shinwell

I have the utmost difficulty in catching Mr. Speaker's eye. Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that everything depends upon the nature of the debate? Some right hon. and hon. Gentlemen do not want to speak at all in some debates, and very often the Whips have to go out into the Tea Room, the Corridors and Smoke Room to persuade hon. Members to come into the Chamber. It is quite impossible—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] I have to make a speech some time. Perhaps that is enough for today.

Mr. Crossman

I regard any comment by myself on my right hon. Friend's intervention as superfluous.