HC Deb 25 April 1967 vol 745 cc1322-8
Q3. Mr. Marquand

asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange for the publication of a White Paper assessing the implications which membership of the European Economic Community would have for British policy in the fields of public ownership and economic planning.

Mr. George Brown

I have been asked to reply.

I have, as yet, nothing to add to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend to a supplementary question by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on 20th April.—[Vol. 745, c. 802.]

Mr. Marquand

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we want to create a Socialist Europe, as I am sure he does—[Interruption.]—in which public ownership and economic planning play a major rôle, it is very important that our E.F.T.A. partners join with us? Can he say what consultations he is having with E.F.T.A. with this aim in view?

Mr. Brown

The Opposition are behaving as though we were already at 9.30 in the evening—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I hope that we will get on to the answer about Europe. Mr. Brown.

Mr. Brown

We have proposed to our colleagues on the E.F.T.A. Ministerial Council that a meeting should take place in London on Friday, 28th April, so that we can continue the process of consultation with them. The meeting will be a normal Ministerial Council meeting, and will therefore be under the chairmanship of our friend, Mr. Gunnar Lange, the Swedish Minister of Commerce, who is the Chairman of the Council. This meeting will give us an opportunity to consult them fully.

Mr. Maudling

Arising out of the question asked by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand), does the Foreign Secretary recall that on 7th June, 1962, the Prime Minister said that the whole conception of the Treaty of Rome was anti-planning? What has changed since then?

Mr. Brown

The answer is the way in which the Common Market itself has developed.

Q7. Mr. Urwin

asked the Prime Minister on what principles any application for British entry into the European Economic Community will be based.

Q9. Mr. Moyle

asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of the Government deciding that Great Britain should apply to join the European Common Market, he will stipulate the conditions upon the fulfilment of which the Government would recommend accession to the Common Market.

Q10. Mr. Leadbitter

asked the Prime Minister on what principles and conditions he would now consider it appropriate to base an application to join the Common Market.

Q11. Mr. Pavitt

asked the Prime Minister what stipulations he will now make before deciding to make a formal application to join the European Common Market.

Q12. Mr. Orme

asked the Prime Minister if he will state the conditions on which Her Majesty's Government would now consider making an application to join the Common Market.

Mr. George Brown

I have been asked to reply.

I would refer my hon. Friends to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 23rd March to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris).—[Vol. 743, c. 333.]

Mr. Urwin

I thank my right hon. Friend for his Answer, but is he aware that it is the opinion of many people in the country that the Government are embarking on a somewhat enigmatic course in relation to integration into Europe? Is he further aware that such a course does not by any means command the complete and universal approbation of people in the country or in the House—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must protect other hon. Members. That is enough, I think.

Mr. Urwin

Excuse me, Mr. Speaker—I have not finished my supplementary question.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I was delicately conveying to the hon. Gentleman that he had asked enough. Mr. Brown—to answer.

Mr. Brown

I do not agree with the remark about an enigmatic course. The point is that the Government, as my hon. Friend well knows, are now deciding the terms, the basis, on which we might make an application for membership, and considering whether some other course might be preferable. As soon as we have an announcement to make, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make it to the House.

Mr. Moyle

But in the event of there being any British application to join the Common Market would not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be better for him to negotiate the democratic control of the institutions of the Common Market before we agree to enter, and as part of any price which this country may agree to pay for entering the European Economic Community?

Mr. Brown

I will certainly take into account what my hon. Friend has said, hut, speaking for myself, I doubt whether that is the right way to approach the matter.

Sir C. Osborne

Have we a 50–50 chance of getting in?

Mr. Brown

I have taken many a bet on worse terms than that.

Mr. Pavitt

In these various conditions that my right hon. Friend has given to the House from time to time, will he bear in mind the need to preserve the right of the National Health Service to be financed to an extent of more than 4 per cent. of the gross national product?

Mr. Brown

I have no reason for thinking that either the terms of the Treaty of Rome or anything I have learned on our tour round Europe would interfere with that position.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

There is one rather obscure point in the Prime Minister's Answer, to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. Is it proposed that there should be a statement and then a debate, or are we to have a statement, a White Paper and then a debate?

Mr. Brown

My right hon. Friend said that we were considering the issue of the fullest possible information to the House and whether we could do it best in a White Paper. We are considering that, and we will, in fact, consult what we believe to be the wishes of the House. The intention in this matter will be to give the House all the information we can, and to give it an opportunity for a full debate and a decision on the matter.

Mr. Orme

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether the conditions about an independent foreign policy, public ownership and protection of the Commonwealth are still being considered by the Government? What conditions have changed since 1962 now to make it possible for the Government to make such an application?

Mr. Brown

Obviously, consideration of the problems of our Commonwealth partners must be one of the things uppermost in our minds in any negotiations which we may undertake. I find it hard to deduce that members of the Six have in fact found it difficult to carry out an independent foreign policy. I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the fact that members of the Six have quite a large amount of their economy under public ownership.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

A moment or two ago, in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), the right hon. Gentleman stated, or implied, that the actual operation of the Community in some respects differed from the provisions of the Treaty of Rome. If he means that, will he be good enough to see that the difference is put in any White Paper which is published, so that the House can bring an informed judgment to bear upon these matters?

Mr. Brown

I neither implied that, nor meant that. What I said—and I will stand on it and put it in any kind of paper the right hon. and learned Gentleman likes—was that the way in which the Community had developed in practice was a good deal different from the way in which some of the federalist advocates some years ago prophesied that it would develop.

Mr. Bellenger

In view of the numerous Questions on this subject which are appearing on the Order Paper, may I ask whether the statement of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister which was made upstairs will be made available to the whole House very shortly?

Mr. Brown

The whole House has before it the very excellent statement which I made upstairs. In view of the tremendous welcome with which it has been received, I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will consider doing the same thing.

Mr. Sandys

Is it not a fact that the Gallup polls show that there is a wider measure of agreement on this question than on almost any other big controversial issue of the day?

Mr. Brown

How far one takes the polsters into account is a matter of judgment. On the whole, I take them into account when they are on my side and disregard when they are not. This is a matter for us in the House to argue out as well as we can on its merits. My own views are obviously well known. The Government collectively will make their views known to the House fairly soon now, and it will then be for the House to argue it out, and I do not think that we should be deflected too much by what polsters or other people may think.

Mr. John Lee

As one certain outcome of our joining the E.E.C. would be an increase in the cost of living, does not my right hon. Friend agree that this will make the task of the enforcement of the incomes policy that much more difficult than it is at the moment?

Mr. Brown

There are bound to be pluses and minuses if we decide to go in. I ask my hon. Friend to take into account against the minuses the undeniable pluses, so that we make a balanced decision.

Mr. Jennings

May we take it from a previous answer of the right hon. Gentleman that before a decision to apply for entry is made there will definitely be a vote in the House? If so, will it be a free vote?

Mr. Brown

It is not for me to say whether there will be a vote. I cannot answer for hon. Members opposite. I do not know how free their votes are. What I can seriously assure the House is that, when the Government have decided, they will come and tell the House and the sub- sequent action in the House will be for the House to decide.

Mr. Dickens

Following that reply, may we now take it that there will then be a comprehensive White Paper setting out the fullest political and economic considerations in this matter, prior to a debate in the House and prior to an application for entry?

Mr. Brown

We are considering what kind of information we might provide for the House and in what form, and I will take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Are the Government now prepared, if necessary, to give a special relationship with the Europeans priority over a special relationship with the Americans?

Mr. Brown

May I make it quite plain to begin with that of course we are Europeans and have been for a very long time. The issue is not whether we are to join Europe. We have been there since the beginning of history. In the consideration of this question many other relationships have to be and are being taken into account.