HC Deb 27 October 1966 vol 734 cc1369-79
Mr. Graham Page

I beg to move Amendment No. 211, in page 58, line 36, to leave out from "association" to the end of line 37.

Mr. Speaker

It is proposed that we should take, at the same time, Amendment No. 212, in page 58, line 41, leave out from "association' to 'no' in line 43; and Amendment No. 213, in page 59, line 1, leave out subsection (3).

Mr. Graham Page

I return to my most intelligent form of the Bill, the one which I can really understand, the one which does not need any effort in understanding, and that is the print which I obtained from the Vote Office and which, on pages 58 and 59, is completely blank. This is the one that I can understand. I struggled with the other one, but instead of leaving the pages blank the other Bill leaves my mind blank.

It is clear what the Minister desires to achieve by Clause 59, and I hope that it is clear to me what the Amendment seeks to achieve. In the Clause, housing associations are, rightly, exempt from levy. These are bodies carrying out the good work of providing homes for people on a non-profit basis. They have, quite properly certain privileges in their trading and provision of homes. The present Government and the past Government have sought to encourage and increase the number of these institutions. It is, therefore, right that they should be exempted from paying the levy.

But the Minister smudges the whole effort by saying that they shall get exemption only if he gives them a certificate. This provision is in the last few words of subsection (1). Subsection (1) provides that the levy shall not be chargeable in the case of land held in trust for a housing association",? and that housing associations shall be exempt only if a certificate under this section is issued in respect of that act or event". We wish to remove that. If we remove those lines, it is necessary to remove some lines in subsection (2), which refer to a certificate, and the whole of sub section (3), which describes the power to issue certificates.

A housing association is either a housing association or it is not. It has certain approvals before it becomes an association. It is watched over by officials appointed by the Government. No one can dispute whether a housing association is a housing association. When carrying out its work of providing houses, it should have exemption without any interference by the Minister. I cannot see the reason for the Minister having a finger in this and having to give a certificate in order to exempt a housing association. Housing associations should be exempt from the levy because they are bodies approved as coming within that category.

The certificate of the Minister carries the matter neither one way or the other. If he refused a certificate, he would do so for some extraneous reason—it could not be anything to do with the housing association—and I cannot see what it is. It would be far better to give the exemption outright without having to issue a certificate.

7.0 p.m.

Sir Douglas Glover (Ormskirk)

I intervene briefly because I happen to be chairman of a housing association and also a member of the Council of the National Federation. I ask the Minister to accept the Amendment. I cannot see the need for the certificate. Because of all the necessary safeguards that the State already imposes, there is enough frustration in getting a project off the ground without, in addition, having to wait for a certificate.

I am not certain how this would work in practice. A housing association first gets a piece of land which it regards as suitable for property. It then has to be cleared with the valuation officer whether the price at which the association buys the land is right. The association then has to clear it with the housing corporation to find whether it will back the finances.

The person who owns the piece of land is probably under offer from other people. One cannot say at this stage of the Bill how long it will take to get a certificate, but if it is automatic there is no point in having one. It could involve delay of weeks or months. The housing association, having gone to all the trouble to find the site, will then write to the Land Commission. The Commission might or might not be dilatory.

The housing association cannot approach anybody else until it has the clearance with the certificate, and it then has to go through the operation of all the other machinery. The result is that by the time that the housing association goes back to the owner to say that it will buy his land, the reply will be, "I am sorry, we sold it a fortnight ago." This is just another obstacle to the success of housing associations.

If a housing association automatically gets a certificate, what is the need for it? It is not as though I could start a housing association tomorrow. To form a housing association, one has to be approved. Unless we are approved, we cannot operate. It is, therefore, accepted that all the existing housing associations are respectable organisations. They are non-profit making, some of them work on a basis of co-ownership, some on a cost-rent principle and some cater for the needs of old people. There are various categories of association, all of them doing a most desirable job.

The one thing which has worried me since I became involved in this movement is the frustration and delay in getting projects off the ground. With no evil intent on anybody's part, we have not yet laid a brick and we have been in existence for nearly two years. During that two years we have been getting sites, but with all the bureaucratic delay that automatically occurs when safeguards are necessary, progress is slow. In the Clause, the Minister is making that progress even more protracted and more frustrating.

I cannot see what danger there would be in accepting the Amendment. I sincerely hope that the Minister will at least say that he will consider it and discuss it, perhaps, with the National Federation. Unless he accepts the Amendment, he will only put another hurdle on the road to the success, which both parties wish to see, of these associations.

Mr. Willey

It is the grounds that the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) has given that justify the Clause. As the hon. Member has said, there is a great range and variety of housing associations. In the Clause, we are concerned only with those which are not charities. The hon. Member indicated that there were a large number of housing associations—some 1,500—which vary greatly in character, some being run by industrial firms and some by ordinary housing developers. In view of this, it is right and proper to retain this discretion with the appropriate Minister, the Minister of Housing.

Dr. M. P. Winstanley (Cheadle)

Do I understand from what the Minister says that there are certain categories of housing association to which he would refuse exemption?

Mr. Willey

I am saying that in these circumstances it is right that there should be a discretion.

Mr. Rippon

Is the Minister really saying that the imposition of taxation should be discretionary?

Sir Derek Walker-Smith (Hertfordshire, East)

I am not sure whether the Minister has finished his speech. If he has, it was sadly incomplete, because he was invited to give reasons for this rather strange provision but did not succeed in adducing a single reason.

The Clause is designed to exempt these housing associations from levy. We then get the phrase and a certificate under this section is issued in respect of that act or event". Subsection (3) defines the power to issue certificates and goes on to say: and any such certificate shall certify that, in the opinion of the Minister issuing the certificate, it is in the circumstances of the case in the public interest… What circumstances will guide the Minister in issuing or withholding these certificates?

Will the Minister be in a position to discriminate and say that it is in the public interest in one case of an appropriately registered and authorised housing association but not in another case? On what principles and according to what criteria will the Minister exercise this jurisdiction which he arrogates to himself by the Clause?

It is extremely unsatisfactory that matters such as this, involving discrimination, should be left to the sole discretion of the Minister without any principles prescribed by statute. It should be a task from which any Minister, especially Ministers like the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend, who are bred in the learning and practice of the law, should shrink. They should not invite and seek to assume such unwelcome jurisdiction as this. Surely, if the Minister has no better explanation than he has vouchsafed to the House, he should accept the Amendment and accept it gladly and with gratitude.

Dr. Winstanley

I had not intended to speak, but in view of the Minister's reply I should say that the Liberal Party is entirely in favour of the Amendment and regard it as a natural simplification.

At first, when I read the Clause and the Amendment, it seemed to me that the issuing of a certificate in these circumstances was merely an additional bureaucratic formality which would simply be a nuisance and would serve no useful purpose. That was bad enough, and we hoped that the Minister might see the point of that and be willing to remove it.

In his answer to the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover), however, the Minister agreed that there were a variety of different kinds of housing association and this, the right hon. Gentleman said, was why it was necessary to have the certification procedure. In other words, the implication is that it is to enable the Minister to discriminate as between one kind of housing association and another.

We would like to know whether it is the Government's intention to give complete exemption in this way to housing associations. If it is, why not do it? They have subsection (4) in the Clause, which defines what a housing association is. If that is the Government's intention, they could surely leave it at that. We are entitled to assume, however, that if they want this additional procedure, it means that they intend to place obstacles in the way of certain housing associations that the Minister has not defined.

Mr. Richard Body (Holland with Boston)

I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to amplify what he said about the Clause in Standing Committee? He then explained to the Committee that some housing associations were charities and some were not, and he went on to say that some of them might be ordinary developers, as if that was something quite dreadful. He then said something which I had some difficulty in understanding. He said that some of the work is supplementary to what is done by the local authorities, and I have the suspicion that the wide discretionary power which he is taking will be used against those housing authorities which are in any way competing with local authority building. That is the only way in which I can interpret what he said in Standing Committee, as reported in c. 697 of the proceedings.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to assure the housing associations that the fear which I have expressed is not a real one and that he will not exercise this wide discretionary power to impose a levy on housing associations in those circumstances.

Mr. Rippon

I hope that the Minister will understand that we on this side of the House feel strongly that his answer is wholly unsatisfactory. I must say that I thought he might well accept this Amendment on the ground that it would clarify the position and that if he was satisfied that housing associations had been constituted properly, that was the end of the matter. I shared the view expressed from the Liberal benches that this was a bit of unnecessary bureaucracy insisting that a housing authority ought to have a certificate to show that all was well.

I was astonished by the Minister's declaration. Without any sort of explanation, he said that he would retain the power to determine any guiding principles as to whether a housing association should be taxed or not.

I know that he has said time and time again that this is not a tax. In the absence of a Law Officer, I suppose that we must rely on the Minister to explain to us what is the difference between a tax and a levy. It is bad enough that the Bill provides virtually for taxation by Order instead of through the normal processes of a Finance Bill, but when we are to have taxation levied by Order and, on top of that, the discretion of the Minister whether the tax should be levied, it is intolerable. It offends every principle of taxation as understood in this country for centuries that a tax should be certain and that people should know whether or not they have to pay it.

Will the Minister try and explain to us why there is a difference between a levy and a tax and, if this is a tax, will he agree that all his arguments fall to the ground?

Mr. Willey

I have assured the right hon. Gentleman on several occasions that this is not a tax. It is a matter which we have discussed repeatedly during our consideration of the Bill. I thought that by now it was generally accepted, except, apparently, by the right hon. Gentleman,

who has not had the advantage of being with us all the time.

I give the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Body) the assurance for which he asked. In resisting the Amendment, I rely on the ground that the safeguard ought to reside with the Minister.

Mr. Clegg

The Minister's replies throughout our debate have been rather like life—short, nasty and brutish. He was asked a specific question by the hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley): will he discriminate or not? He can be equally short, nasty and brutish in answering that question, and we shall then know where we stand.

The more that I listen to the good intentions expressed by the Minister, the more I am appalled as a lawyer. It means that any judge, in the Government's contention, must have the proceedings of the Committee upstairs, this Report stage and no doubt Third Reading before him as a sort of vade-mecum in order to interpret the Act.

In my experience, judges do not take kindly to any advocate who produces such proceedings. They say that it is not what the Minister said which is important. It is what Parliament said, what the House of Lords confirmed and what Her Majesty confirmed. That is what counts in the courts, and not these good intentions put forward by the right hon. Gentleman and the other part of that dynamic duo, the Parliamentary Secretary.

I think that we ought to press the right hon. Gentleman for an answer to the simple question put by the hon. Member for Cheadle—a simple yes or no. It will not take long and it will not hurt the right hon. Gentleman to do it. Please let us have an answer to a specific question.

Hon. Members

Answer.

Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 167, Noes 113.

Division No. 187.] AYES [7.15 p.m.
Abse, Leo Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Blenkinsop, Arthur
Allen, Scholefield Bagier, Gordon A. T. Booth, Albert
Anderson, Donald Beaney, Alan Boston, Terence
Archer, Peter Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) Bray, Dr. Jeremy
Ashley Jack Bidwell, Sydney Brooks, Edwin
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Bishop, E. S. Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Blackburn, F. Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Hattersley, Roy Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Hazell, Bert Padley, Walter
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Harbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Palmer, Arthur
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hilton, W. S. Park, Trevor
Cant, R. B. Hooley, Frank Parker, John (Dagenham)
Carmichael, Neil Horner, John Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Carter- Jones, Lewis Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) Perry Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Chapman, Donald Hoy, James Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Coleman, Donald Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Concannon, J. D. Hughes, Roy (Newport) Price, William (Rugby)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Hunter, Adam Reynolds, G. W.
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Dalyell, Tam Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.) Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Roebuck, Roy
Davies, Harold (Leek) Jones, J. Hn. SirElwyn (W. Ham, S.) Rogers George (Kensington, N.)
Davies, Robert (Cambridge) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Dewar, Donald Kelley, Richard Ryan, John
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Kenyon, Clifford Shaw, Arnold (Ilford 8.)
Dobson, Ray Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)
Doig, Peter Lawson, George Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Driberg, Tom Lee, John (Reading) Silkin, S. C. (Dulwich)
Dunn, James A. Luard, Evan Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Dunnett, Jack Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Skeffington, Arthur
Eadie, Alex McBride, Neil Slater, Joseph
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) McCann, John Small, William
Edwards, William (Merioneth) MacColl, James Snow, Julian
Ellis, John Macdonald, A. H. Spriggs, Leslie
English, Michael Maclennan, Robert Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Ensor, David McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) MacPherson, Malcolm Taverne, Dick
Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Marquand, David Tomney, Frank
Faulds, Andrew Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Varley, Eric G.
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mason, Roy Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Maxwell, Robert Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mayhew, Christopher Wallace, George
Floud, Bernard Mellish, Robert Watkins, David (Consett)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Miller, Dr. M. S. Wellbeloved, James
Forrester, John Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Fowler, Gerry Molloy, William Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Fraser, John (Norwood) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Gourlay, Harry Murray, Albert Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Newens, Stan Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Gregory, Arnold Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) Yates, Victor
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Norwood, Christopher Zilliacus, K.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Ogden, Eric
Hamling, William O'Malley, Brian TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hannan, William Orbach, Maurice Mr. Whitlock and
Harper, Joseph Orme, Stanley Mr. Walter Harrison.
NOES
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Eden, Sir John Iremonger, T. L.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Errington, Sir Eric Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Awdry, Daniel Farr, John Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Baker, W. H. K. Fisher, Nigel Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Batsford, Brian Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Kirk, Peter
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Knight, Mrs. Jill
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Glover, Sir Douglas McAdden, Sir Stephen
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Goodhart, Philip Maddan, Martin
Biffen, John Goodhew, Victor Maude, Angus
Black, Sir Cyril Grant, Anthony Mawby, Ray
Blaker, Peter Grieve, Percy Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Body, Richard Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Halt, John (Wycombe) Monro, Hector
Brewis, John Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Harris, Reader (Heston) Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Bullus, Sir Eric Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Murton, Oscar
Campbell, Gordon Harvie Anderson, Miss Nott, John
Chichester-Clark, R. Hastings, Stephen Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian
Clark, Henry Hawkins, Paul Osborn, John (Hallam)
Clegg, Walter Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Page, Graham (Crosby)
Cooke, Robert Heseltine, Michael Percival, Ian
Cooper-Key, Sir Neill Higgins, Terence L. Pink, R. Bonner
Costain, A. P. Hill, J. E. B. Price, David (Eastleigh)
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Hirst, Geoffrey Prior, J. M. L.
Crawley, Aidan Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John Pym, Francis
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver Holland, Philip Rees-Davies, W. R.
Crouch, David Hornby, Richard Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Cunningham, Sir Knox Howell, David (Guildford) Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Dance, James Hunt, John Roots, William
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Hutchison, Michael Clark Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Russell, Sir Ronald Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Scott, Nicholas Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Sharples, Richard Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) Woodnutt, Mark
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek Younger, Hn. George
Sinclair, Sir George Weatherill, Bernard
Smith, John Webster, David TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Steel, David (Roxburgh) Whitelaw, William Mr. More and Mr. Eyre.
Stodart, Anthony Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)