§ No notification shall be required to be given to the Commission of any chargeable act or event which by virtue of sections 56, 57, 58, or 59 of this Act does not give rise to the charging of levy.—[Mr. Allason.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ 8.15 p.m.
§ Mr. AllasonI beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
§
Clause 56, which deals with local authorities and other bodies, begins:
No levy shall be chargeable—
§ Local authorities, development corporations, new towns commissions and various other public bodies come within the Clause. Clause 57 deals with charities, Clause 58 with statutory undertakers and the National Coal Board, and Clause 59 with housing associations. All these bodies, by the first line of each Clause, are exempted from payment of the levy. Therefore, why is it necessary to enforce notification on them?
§ Under Clause 38, entitled "Notification in Case C"—that is, a development—this is the sort of thing which has to take place. Let us consider the example of a local authority which has bought land on which it wants to start house building. It is required to notify the Land Commission. 1118 Subsection (5) of the Clause sets out the sort of notification which is required. The local authority has to inform the Commission of
- "(a) any planning permission in accordance with which the project is to be carried out;
- (b) the land which is intended to be comprised in the project, the nature and scope of the project and the date on which it is proposed to begin to carry it out;
- (c) (where the person serving the notice is the developing owner in relation to the project)"—
§
which, presumably, the local authority is—
every interest, contract or notice to treat by virtue of which he is the developing owner;
(d) any other interests subsisting in the land which is to be comprised in the project and the persons entitled to those interests respectively;
(e) any contract for disposing of any interest in that land to which the person serving the notice is a party; and
(f) any other matters appearing to the appropriate Ministers or Ministers to be relevant for the purpose of assessing levy …
§ Every local authority, with the vast amount of local government building which goes on even under this Government, will have to notify the Commission of all this. A tremendous amount of work will be cast on local authorities in supplying information which, on its arrival at the Land Commission, will presumably be thrown into the wastepaper basket because no levy is chargeable. One assumes. 1119 therefore, that the Commission will not go through the elaborate process of working out how much levy is due to be charged and then deciding at the last moment that the levy is not chargeable and therefore that it need not send a notice of assessment. Or it may be that the intention is that they should send a notice of assessment and that the local authority should write back and claim exemption. We do not know how the Bill will work.
§ It seems ridiculous that busy local authorities, charities, statutory undertakers and various other bodies which are exempt should be asked to forward this vast amount of information. It is most extraordinary that this is demanded by the Government through the Bill. Vast numbers of civil servants are bound to be employed in this work already. I do not want to see vast numbers of local government servants also employed in it, which they certainly will be if that is the intention. Why waste everybody's time? There will be quite enough for the civil servants to do dealing with the more than 1 million notifications a year which are bound to occur, without the notifications of local authorities and all the others.
§ The only good that I can see coming out of this is a purely constituency point. We have a great firm of paper manufacturers in my constituency and the flood of paper which the Government intend to be passing between the Commission and everybody who is trying to develop will undoubtedly bring great prosperity to my constituency. I do not believe even that, however, to be a good enough reason for insisting on the unnecessary.
§ Mr. SkeffingtonThe hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason) has moved the new Clause with his customary lucidity and charm. He or another hon. Member referred to me earlier today as having skated over thin ice. The hon. Member has skated over some of the administrative points in connection with the new Clause, which on reflection, I am sure, he will realise is not quite right, particularly because, if the Clause were carried, he might well inflict considerable harm on the payer of the levy.
I will explain why the Government advise the House not to accept the 1120 Clause. It sounds an attractive proposition to ask why, if no levy is to be payable, we should go through the procedure of notification in the first instance, but there are two basic reasons why the Government could not possibly advise the House to accept the Clause. First, in the case of notifications in Cases A, B, E and F, the fact of notification is of considerable assistance to the levy payer who is involved in a subsequent transaction. Suppose, for example, that a local authority had sold land to a private person. If there were no notification in such a case and the private individual subsequently sold or developed, he might be in considerable difficulty in being able to get evidence of his base value. In that case, he might well have to pay more levy than otherwise would arise.
The hon. Member quoted some of the exemptions in Clauses 56 to 59——
§ Mr. AllasonThe hon. Gentleman cites an example of a local authority which has sold to a private individual, who later wants to sell but finds it difficult to establish base value. There should not be the slightest difficulty when he has made a purchase. When he wants to sell again, there would be no difficulty in establishing it.
§ Mr. SkeffingtonWhen notification is made at the time of the transaction, the matter is above board for all to see. The Schedule 5 base value and the price paid would be of material interest to that person. After a long lapse of time, it is not always easy to prove these things.
Even so, the hon. Member did less than justice in referring to Clauses 56 to 58. If he looks at them he will realise that even in these cases where no levy is chargeable, this is normally only in respect of certain land. Clause 56 concerns the local authorities in cases where no levy is chargeable. In subsection (2) appear the words:
without prejudice to the charging of levy in respect of any other interest in that land or part of that land.There is a similar provision in Clause 57 for charities, in subsection (3). Even in the case of statutory undertakers, the exemption from levy applies only under certain conditions which are stated in Clause 58. It is only in those cases that the levy is not paid. Nevertheless, so that the Commission shall know from which 1121 particular portion of land the development values accrue, it is right that there should be notification. Therefore, all chargeable acts or events which must be notified certainly include these provisions.If it were possible to restrict the application to cases where there was not likely to be any other interest involved or where one felt that the question of base value would not arise, I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister would be pleased to accept the Clause. Indeed, there has been one case of granting exemption from the notification procedures which is covered in Clause 56(3): that is, where a wholly exempt body carries out development of land in which it owns all the assessable interest. Unless the hon. Member can point to any other case where the exact set of circumstances applies, for the reasons which I have given the Clause and the power that it contains would create difficulties for the Commission and very often cause hardship to the levy payer.
I should stress that the obligation to notify in compulsory cases is not likely to be burdensome. As we said in Committee, this is very little more than complying with the requirements of the form on which details now have to be returned to the Inland Revenue. I agree that the obligation is a little more heavy in Case C, but in the other cases it is something which has to be done. One form can now be used for these purposes and, I believe, for Capital Gains Tax as well. There is not, therefore, the great additional bureaucratic burden which the hon. Member suggested. The one form which is to be used was, I am happy to say, discussed with the Law Society and is, I believe, in preparation.
For all these reasons, I hope that the House will not feel that the Government are unreasonable in asking it to reject the new Clause should it be pressed.
§ Mr. Graham PageThe Parliamentary Secretary seemed to me a little troubled with his arguments against this new Clause, which was submitted so clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason). I should have thought that we might have had some information from die Parliamentary Secretary as to the number of transactions which it is expected will have to be reported each year. The estimate 1122 which I have been given, and which I have no reason to doubt, is that somewhere about 2 million transactions will have to be reported each year. Two million transactions reported! Quite rightly my hon. Friend talked about the amount of paper involved in this; but it is not only the amount of paper: it is the amount of staff which will have to deal with the 2 million applications.
§ 8.30 p.m.
§ Mr. SkeffingtonI have been interrupted myself and I hope the hon. Member will not mind my interrupting him once. The point I was trying to make was that in all these transactions, if there had not been this particular procedure, notification would have had to be made to the Inland Revenue. Therefore, no additional burden is put on anybody.
§ Mr. PageDo I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary is referring to notifications under the Finance Act—of particulars delivered? I have had an Amendment down to Finance Bills for very many years to do away with that ridiculous nonsense of the particulars delivered, filed with every conveyance. It has never been accepted, but it is time it was accepted. Now some use is being made of those forms, but to suggest that these were filed, and that notification would have had to have been given, is really a very poor argument. Those forms were filed, and are filed now, on the occasion of every conveyance. Again I declare an interest as a solicitor. I tack on a guinea at the end of the scale charge in order to do that. If the Parliamentary Secretary deprives me of that I shall not be worried—stupid little forms to be given and filed in the Inland Revenue somewhere and never looked at. Now they are to be used for this purpose. No; those notifications are now going to the Inland Revenue; they will pass from the Inland Revenue to the staff of the Land Commission, to be tucked away, filed somewhere to be looked at never, and if they are to be looked at, we are told that 2,000 staff are to look at those notifications.
Of course, that staff will be far more than 2,000. I gather that that 2,000 merely means clerks other than, possibly, principals, at the Land Commission: not valuers; the district valuer will do the valuation, or else it will be farmed out 1123 to private firms. These are clerks to deal with reports, notifications, each year. I doubt whether all those 2,000 members of the staff are principals and can deal with notifications. But let us cut this down to one principal and a typist. This will be the unit, as it were, to look at each notification which comes in. That means we have got 1,000 units to look at each notification—a man and his typist. That means that 2,000 cases a year have to be dealt with by that unit; 40 cases a week. Is a staff of 2,000 really going to deal with that? Of course not. It is going to increase and pile up to a far greater figure.
But what if we could cut down those notifications from 2 million to about 500,000? I believe we could cut them down to that figure. If it were accepted that dwelling houses, the homes of the people, did not have to be notified we could cut them down by at least 500,000, and if all those cases mentioned in Clauses 56, 57 and 58 were not to be reported. So we could save a considerable amount of the staff of the Land Commission. Instead of that we are to have a staff of 2,000. It is going to be heavily overworked, and I believe that we shall find that the staff is not 2,000 but, very shortly, 10,000.
At the other end of this process every vendor of property has to fill in this form, got, perhaps, to answer further inquiries from the Land Commission. What a loss of productive time in those undertakings which are to be exempt from the levy altogether. I cannot see that there can be any doubt about a transaction which is exempt. Take, for example, Clause 56. Clause 56 sets out certain statutory bodies. There cannot be any question whether a body is or is not a commission of a new town, or is or is not the Highlands and Islands Development Board. If one of those bodies sells property it is, except in exceptional circumstances, exempt from the levy. Why then should it not be exempt from giving notification? The Parliamentary Secretary says it is not necessarily exempt, but let me come back to that point. I have it in mind.
I want to look at the other Clauses in which we say that there are those who are exempt and who ought not to have to notify. Let us look, for example, at 1124 Clause 58, which deals with statutory undertakers and the National Coal Board. Well, it is either the National Coal Board or it is not; there cannot be any doubt about it. The statutory undertakers are defined by Statute, and if a statutory undertaker is selling part of the property of the statutory undertaking, it is exempt except in exceptional circumstances.
The reasons which the Parliamentary Secretary gave for notification by even these people who are exempt from the levy were these. He said, first, that this will be of great assistance to the levy payer, but let us look at that for a moment. He is talking about a man who purchases from a statutory undertaker. Take the case of a man who purchases from the National Coal Board. He gets a conveyance from the National Coal Board and in that conveyance the purchase money is stated. What more information does he want on record than that? He can refer back to it when he comes to sell. He does not have to have the transaction reported to the Land Commission in order to know the price which he paid for the property. That is what the Parliamentary Secretary is saying. He is saying that the man does not know the price that he paid for the property, so it needs to be reported to the Land Commission. What happens when he wants to sell and wishes to know what levy he must pay? Does he have to write to the Land Commission to ask how much he paid?
§ Mr. SkeffingtonThat is not what I said, either.
§ Mr. PageWith respect, it was. The hon. Gentleman said the man would want to know the price that he has paid. He elaborated on that and said that he would want to know the base value, but that would follow from the price paid by the calculation in the Second Schedule.
Then he said that it is true that it is possible to identify the statutory undertakers, the National Coal Board, the local authorities, the Scottish Special Housing Association, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, and so on. He said that they can be identified as vendors, but they are not exempt on all transactions.
Let us examine what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It is that these statutory 1125 undertakers are not going to read the Land Commission Act and see the cases in which they are not exempt or, if they do read the Act, they are deliberately not going to report those cases to the Commission. If they know that they are not exempt, they should report the cases. If it needs putting into the new Clause, let us put it in. But we really must trust the statutory undertakers and not establish the Land Commission as Big Brother over them.
The hon. Gentleman is saying that the National Coal Board must report to the Land Commission so that the Commission can judge whether a transaction is one in which the National Coal Board is exempt. Surely we can trust the National Coal Board to read the Act and report those cases in which it knows that it is not exempt from paying the levy. However, in most cases the National Coal Board, statutory undertakers and public authorities will be exempt.
§ The Clause is a most important one. In it, we are trying to make the Bill work. When we in this party become the
1126§ Government again, we shall repeal the Act at once and abolish the Land Commission. But when a Bill is going through the House and the Government are determined to get it on the Statute Book, it is right that we should suggest ways in which it could be made to work.
§ If some such proposal as is put in the new Clause is not adopted, either the Bill will not work or there will be such a large bureaucracy working it that the expense will be exhorbitant. As it is, we are building up a staff of 2,000, we are told, at a time when the Government's policy seems to be to move people from clerical work into manual work and the productive industries. We are going to use professional men on this sterile job in the Commission. Surely we can relieve some of them from looking through notifications in cases where we know that no levy will be made?
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 116, Noes 213.
1127| Division No. 182.] | AYES | [8.41 p.m. |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Onslow, Cranley |
| Astor, John | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Hastings, Stephen | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Baker, W. H. K. | Heseltine, Michael | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Batsford, Brian | Hiley, Joseph | Percival, Ian |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Holland, Philip | Pounder, Rafton |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Hordern, Peter | Pym, Francis |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Burden, F. A. | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Carlisle, Mark | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Roots, William |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Kimball, Marcus | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Clark, Henry | Kirk, Peter | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Clegg, Walter | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Cooke, Robert | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Smith, John |
| Costain, A. P. | Loveys, W. H. | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Crouch, David | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Talbot, John E. |
| Dance, James | MacArthur, Ian | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | McMaster, Stanley | Tilney, John |
| Eden, Sir John | Maginnis, John E. | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Marten, Nell | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Mathew, Robert | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Farr, John | Maude, Angus | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Fisher, Nigel | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Webster, David |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Fortescue, Tim | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Whitelaw, William |
| Foster, Sir John | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Monro, Hector | Worsley, Marcus |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | More, Jasper | Wylie, N. R. |
| Gower, Raymond | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | |
| Grieve, Percy | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Gurden, Harold | Murton, Oscar | Mr. Anthony Grant and |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Mr. Reginald Eyre. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Floud, Bernard | Neal, Harold |
| Albu, Austen | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Newens, Stan |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Ford, Ben | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) |
| Alldritt, Walter | Forrester, John | Oakes, Gordon |
| Allen, Scholefield | Fowler, Gerry | Ogden, Eric |
| Anderson, Donald | Galpern, Sir Myer | O'Malley, Brian |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Gardner, Tony | Orbach, Maurice |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Garrett, W. E. | Orme, Stanley |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Garrow, Alex | Oswald, Thomas |
| Baxter, William | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Beaney, Alan | Gregory, Arnold | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Bence, Cyril | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Pannenll, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Binns, John | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) | Pardoe, John |
| Bishop, E. S. | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Park, Trevor |
| Blackburn, F. | Hale, Leslie (Oldham, w.) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Boardman, H. | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Penttand, Norman |
| Booth, Albert | Hannan, William | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Boyden, James | Harper, Joseph | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Bradley, Tom | Haseldine, Norman | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Brooks, Edwin | Hazell, Bert | Probert, Arthur |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Henig, Stanley | Randall, Harry |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Rankin, John |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'bum) | Hooley, Frank | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hooson, Emlyn | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Homer, John | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Cant, R. B. | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Carmichael, Nein | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Howie, W. | Rose, Paul |
| Chapman, Ronald | Hoy, James | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Coe, Dennis | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Rowland, Christopher (Meriden) |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Hunter, Adam | Shore, Peter (Stepney) |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Hynd, John | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Janner, Sir Barnett | Silkln, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Small, William |
| Davidton, Arthur (Accrington) | Kelley, Richard | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Davidson, James (Aberdeeneshire, W.) | Kenyon, Clifford | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Lawson, George | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Leadbitter, Ted | Swingler, Stephen |
| Davies, Robert (Cambridge) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Symonds, J. B. |
| Delargy, Hugh | Loughlin, Charles | Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Dell, Edmund | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Dempsey, James | Mabon Dr. J. Dickson | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| Dewar, Donald | McBride, Neil | Tinn, James |
| Dickens, James | McCann, John | Tomney, Frank |
| Dobson, Ray | Macdonald, A. H. | Varley, Eric G. |
| Doig, Peter | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross&Crom'ty) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Dunn, James A. | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Mackintosh, John P. | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | MacPherson, Malcolm | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Eadie, Alex | Manuel, Archie | Whitlock, William |
| Edwards, Robert (Bittton) | Mapp, Charles | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Marquand, David | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Ellis, John | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Willis, George (Edinburgh, P,) |
| English, Michael | Maxwell, Robert | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Ennals David | Mendelson, J. J. | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Ensor, David | Millnan, Bruce | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Faulds, Andrew | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Woof, Robert |
| Fernyhough, E. | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Zilliacus, K. |
| Finch, Harold | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.) | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Mr. Harry Gourlay and |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Moyle, Roland | Mr. Ioan L. Evans. |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |