HC Deb 07 November 1966 vol 735 cc974-8
44. Mr. Neave

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that Group Captain Day and others who served in the Second World War were detained within the limits of Sachsenhausen concentration camp; and whether he will reconsider the decision not to compensate them in accordance with the Agreement signed on 9th June, 1964, with the Federal Republic of Germany.

77. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what compensation based on the Anglo-German Treaty of 1964 Group Captain Day and other prisoners, who were placed by the Gestapo in a concentration camp, will receive.

Mr. George Brown

For reasons fully explained by Ministers on a number of occasions I regret that Group Captain Day and his companions, gallant though they were, do not come within the category of those who suffered from Nazi persecution, as defined in the Anglo-German Agreement of 1964.

Mr. Neave

If it is agreed that these men were put in Sachsenhausen camp by the Nazis more than 20 years ago, how can the right hon. Gentleman be justified in saying today that they were not the victims of Nazi persecution? Is not this a very sad and deplorable position?

Mr. Brown

I did not say that. I said that they are not victims as defined in the Anglo-German Agreement of 1964. That was not drawn up by me, or by us, but by right hon. Gentlemen opposite when they were the Government. I tell the hon. Gentleman frankly that when I first heard of this, and first heard from him, I wondered whether we were being legalistic. I went into it very carefully, but the fact is that if we were to make an exception in this case—and it would be a clear exception to what the agreement provides—there would be many other people with at least as big a claim, and many others with even bigger claims. As the amount of money would be stretched beyond all reason, I am afraid that we have to remain within the terms of the agreement.

Mr. Shinwell

Will my right hon. Friend give this matter further consideration? Whatever may be said about my right hon. Friend, no one can accuse him of a lack of humanity or a lack of a sense of social justice. Will he have regard to the fact—and it is an inescapable fact—that these gallant men have been deprived of compensation on technical grounds? They are not asking for very much. Surely he will not allow a technicality to stand in the way of justice?

Mr. Brown

I rather wondered about that. I went into the matter very deeply, but it is not just a technicality. I assure my right hon. Friend that there are very many other people with whom I would be concerned who have an even greater claim than these gallant men. In fact the agreement, rightly or wrongly, excludes all those, and provides for certain categories to which they do not belong. In the circumstances, the money having been allocated, and final registration having been achieved, I do not see that I can do any more about it, much as I admire the gallantry and the initiative shown by Group Captain Day and his colleagues.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I had a second look at this, and I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman will do the same. I think it is possible that a mistake has been made here. The right hon. Gentleman says that there are very many others who would be included if there were an extension of the definition. How many are involved? I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will personally have another look at this. I think that it is a case which the House would wish him to look at afresh.

Mr. Brown

I wish that the Minister then responsible had drawn the agreement in a different way. I wish that the total sum of money then achieved by Ministers who negotiated it had been bigger, but I am cabin'd by both. In those circumstances I can only say that I have gone into it with a deep desire to meet this case if I could, but, frankly, I cannot.

Mrs. Kerr

Will my right hon. Friend attempt to have this agreement revised? I have been to this terrible concentration camp, and I learned much of what had been done to our men while in captivity there. Many of them died and their relatives never received compensation. I ask my right hon. Friend to attempt to have this agreement revised.

Mr. Brown

I cannot give that undertaking.

Mr. Thorpe

Even if it is accepted that other people are affected, why should these gallant men have to suffer from the imprecision of drafting of the original treaty? Is not this a case where, if the German Government are not prepared to make some payment, we at least have a moral obligation to make an ex gratia payment?

Mr. Brown

Many other people suffered from German treatment even more—if that is possible to imagine—than these people did. I am afraid that I have to stand by the agreement after all this lapse of time.

Mr. Ginsburg

May I reinforce what my right hon. Friend has said and ask the Foreign Secretary whether this concentration camp was inspected by the International Red Cross as a proper prisoner-of-war camp should be? May I plead with him to use his humanity and even go to the extent of personally interviewing the people concerned?

Mr. Brown

I did not want to make this point, but I will obviously have to. Even though both these establishments were within the same barbed wire and the same compound, there was a considerable difference between the special enclosure where these men were imprisoned and the concentration camp itself. These men had access to many so-called privileges that the people in Sachsenhausen clearly did not have. I did not want to make this point. I wanted to show that I was concerned with what happened to these men. But they were never in Sachsenhausen camp proper. They were in a special compound on their own, with access to all kinds of things—books, outside parcels and cigarettes—which I can assure my hon. Friend the concentration camp victims never had.

Mr. Ridsdale

In all fairness to these men, may I press the right hon. Gentleman to the extent that if he is going to give a negative answer he should consider sending this case to the Ombudsman, when that office is established?

Mr. Brown

I am certain that in all justice to lots of other people the decision that I am taking is the right one.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

While it is true that these men were technically outside the camp, they were able to see and experience all that went on inside—if my information is correct—and this was a harrowing experience, and they suffered from it. Would it not be possible to have conversations between the two sides of the House to see if we can work out some agreement which will do something, at any rate?

Mr. Brown

I am sure that no such agreement can be worked out, but if the right hon. Gentleman wants to look into the matter and wants to see me, with any other hon. Members, I shall be happy to see him. Hon. Members have been seen by my hon. Friend and the men themselves have been seen. That has been explained. I shall be glad to go into the question with hon. Members myself. I have looked into it deeply. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to remember that the treaty excluded many people who were the victims of harsh Nazi persecution, and if we are going to rewrite it we shall have to include them.

Mr. Molloy

I appreciate the difficult situation in which my right hon. Friend finds himself concerning the legal technicality of the matter, but will he reconsider his dictum that to increase the number of people to be regarded as having suffered as a result of these atrocities may deter ultimate justice?

Mr. Brown

I did not deliver any such dictum. I do not recognise myself as being in any legal difficulties. I have interpreted the agreement. I have looked at the sum of money and I have looked at what the consequences would be if we were to stretch the agreement to cover these men—and I have come to the conclusion, much as I admire these men and much as I would like to do what I can for them, that, in justice to many other people, I cannot go any further.

Mr. Ginsburg

I asked my right hon. Friend whether this camp was inspected by the International Red Cross or the Swiss Government, and he did not answer. It has a bearing on the matter, and I should be grateful if he will answer this point.

Mr. Brown

I thought that my hon. Friend was referring to Sachsenhausen concentration camp. I am not briefed on that. To my knowledge these men certainly received Red Cross parcels in the compound in which they were kept.