European Economic Community (Hansard, 7 July 1966)

§ 4. Mr. Kershaw
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs which little National Economic Development Councils he has instructed to take into account the possibility of the United Kingdom joining the Common Market; and in what terms.

§ Mr. George Brown
None, Sir.

§ Mr. Kershaw
Is not this very deplorable? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the absence of any instructions in this regard shows that his protestations about wishing to get into Europe are so much humbug?

§ Mr. Brown
I am sure that the hon. Member feels better after that. The answer to his Question is that the E.D.Cs have enough on their plates in trying to improve our industrial performance at home, and by doing that they will achieve what I think the hon. Member is after.

§ 5. Mr. Ridley
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what recent soundings he has made in European capitals with regard to the United Kingdom joining the Common Market; and if he will make a statement.

§ 7. Mr. Eldon Griffiths
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will make a statement on his efforts to promote closer economic links with the European Economic Community.

§ 18. Mr. Worsley
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs with which of the member countries of the European Economic Community he is now conducting soundings with a view to a British application for membership of the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. George Brown
Together with my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster I am taking every opportunity through international contacts of all kinds to explore the circumstances in which we might join the Community.

§ Mr. Ridley
Since it is the right hon. Gentleman's policy to try to join the Community if possible, can he say why so many of the Government's actions appear to be running counter to what we should be doing if we wish to fit ourselves into the Community?

§ Mr. Brown
I cannot think of any.

§ Mr. Griffiths
Can the right hon. Gentleman comment on the German Government's suggestion that it is time to get down to the details of negotiating Britain's entry? In view of the fact that 80 of his hon. Friends signed an anti-Common Market Resolution, 72 signed a pro-Common Market Resolution, and one signed both, will not he finally get off the fence and tell us on which side the Government are?

§ Mr. Brown
I cannot get off a fence that is facing three ways. If the normal Opposition practice is being copied by my hon. Friends I would certainly regret it. As for the question, I very much welcome what the German Foreign Secretary had to say, and have taken it into account.

§ Mr. Worsley
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his answer this afternoon has increased the impression that this is not regarded as a matter of urgency by Her Majesty's Government?

§ Mr. Brown
It has increased it only in those quarters—among which I am sorry to see the hon. Member—which want to have that impression.

§ Sir G. de Freitas
Does not my right hon. Friend think that it would be a good thing to have a debate on our relations with European organisations of which we are already a member? Will he try to persuade the Leader of the House to allow us time to discuss the work of the Council of Europe?

§ Mr. Brown
I will not go so far as to try to persuade my right hon. Friend because I have enough trouble as it is, but I shall certainly convey to him the observations of my hon. Friend.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Will my right hon. Friend remind hon. Members opposite and some hon. Members on this side of the House that we are not prepared to enter the Common Market unconditionally? Does he appreciate that on no account should we allow ourselves to be pitchforked into the Common Market by people who have axes to grind?

§ Mr. Brown
I can truthfully say that I have never ground an axe in my life. But I am very clear that not one of the present members of the European Economic Community entered it unconditionally, and I have no intention that Britain should do this.

§ Mr. Iain Macleod
Because most of us, unlike the right hon. Member for Easing-ton (Mr. Shinwell), wish to see progress in this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us, in particular, whether the communiqué—if there is to be one—at the end of M. Pompidou's visit will include a specific reference to the discussions that have taken place between the two Governments on this matter?

§ Mr. Brown
As we are currently about half-way through the discussions, it would obviously be absurd for me to say now what communiqué will be issued at the end of them.

§ 6. Mr. Ridley
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will give details of the official representations he has received from the European Economic Community of countries regarding the incompatibility of the premiums payable under the Selective Employment Payments Bill with the Treaty of Rome.

§ Mr. George Brown
No such representations have been received.

§ Mr. Ridley
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these premiums are clearly in contravention of Article 85(1)(d) of the Treaty of Rome? The right hon. Gentleman said that he did not know of any example of his actions contravening the Treaty of Rome. Will he admit this one and take steps to make sure that the offensive parts of this tax are removed in order to facilitate our joining the Common Market?

§ Mr. Brown
The Question asked whether I had received from the Community any representations and the answer, truthfully, is "None". I gather that he is now making one.

§ 8. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what assurances he has given in the course of his soundings of Continental European Governments with a view to possible British membership of the Common Market, regarding the replacement of the import surcharge by import quotas.

§ Mr. George Brown
None, Sir; no such assurances have been sought.

§ Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the imposition of import controls will have the most disastrous effect upon our possible entry into the Common Market? Will he, therefore, renounce this possibility on behalf of Her Majesty's Government?

§ Mr. Brown
I do not have to renounce the possibility, which is only a gleam in the eye of the hon. Member.

§ Sir C. Osborne
When the import surcharges are taken off in November, does not the right hon. Gentleman expect a flood of imports? If so, what action will the Government take to deal with it?

§ Mr. Brown
That is not profitable to examine in public, but I would remind the hon. Member of what has been said by the Government on previous occasions, which is that while we cannot give a hard and fast undertaking of indefinite duration not to take direct alternative measures if the balance of payments once again deteriorates seriously, Her Majesty's Government do not intend to replace the import charge by any other measure directed to import restriction when the charge expires in November. This has been said several times, and not only in the House. That is what I said at Bergen, and that is as far as I am going to go.

§ 9. Mr. Fletcher-Cooke
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will list the various obstacles to the United Kingdom joining the European Economic Community and Her Majesty's Government's proposals for overcoming them.

§ Mr. George Brown
There are a number of problems, the most important of which were contained in the list by Mr. Gaitskell in 1962. All are being studied, but we are not yet at the stage of making proposals.

§ Mr. Fletcher-Cooke
Is not there now a new problem which is much exercising the minds of the members of the Community, namely, the state of sterling? Will he nevertheless consider making a list of these obstacles, including the new one, and his proposals for overcoming them?

§ Mr. Brown
No. I do not think that there is any point in making such a list, and I do not think that the hon. and learned Member is helping the nation with the twist that he has put into his question.

§ Mr. Sandys
I do not wish to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman in his talks, but will he consider the possibility of making a very full statement on the results of his soundings about the obstacles which he sees, and the results of his talks with other Governments about those obstacles?

§ Mr. Brown
Yes, there will come a point at which we ought to explain to the House what the situation is. I was asked about this earlier by another hon. Member. I do not think that we are at that stage now, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman—an old friend of mine—not to embarrass me by distinguishing me from my other hon. Friends whom he embarrasses from time to time.

§ Lord Balniel
The right hon. Gentleman asked not to be distinguished from his right hon. Friends, but surely it would be preferable, instead of having a whole series of disconnected Ministerial statements when they are abroad and out of sight of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), that the Prime Minister should come here and make a coherent statement of his desire to enter the European Economic Community?

Hon. Members
Hear, hear.

§ Mr. Brown
That was a very noble effort and worth a cheer or two. In fact, the speeches made have all been published here and copies have been placed in the Library. If the hon. Gentleman is capable of coherent reading, they are all there for him to read.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Would my right hon. Friend realise that nobody on this side—certainly not I—seeks to embarrass him in any way, but that the one thing which some of us are trying to prevent is any embarrassment to the United Kingdom?

§ Mr. Brown
My right hon. Friend may take it from me that that certainly cannot happen and that I did not include him in the strictures which I passed on the party opposite.

§ 13. Sir T. Beamish
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what consideration he has given to the likely effect on the prices and incomes policy of the mobility of labour that would result from joining the European Economic Community; and if he will discuss this question with the Trades Union Congress General Council and with the Confederation of British Industry.

§ Mr. George Brown
This among other aspects of policy is of course under continuous study. We shall most certainly consult with the Trades Union Congress, 650 the Confederation of British Industry and other interested parties whenever it is appropriate.

§ Sir T. Beamish
Since joining the Common Market would inevitably have a profound effect not only on the prices and incomes policy but on the National Plan, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply to this and earlier Questions inevitably leaves the House with the feeling that the Government are halfhearted about joining the Common Market?

§ Mr. Brown
I see no reason for that, except that hon. Gentlemen came in with that in their minds. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman would look at the Treaty of Rome, he would see that there is nothing in that whatever, however applied, which could possibly affect what we are doing here.

§ 14. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what conclusions he has drawn, following his soundings of European Governments with a view to possible British membership of the European Economic Community, regarding the effect on British sovereignty of signature of the Treaty of Rome.

§ Mr. George Brown
I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 19th May in reply to a Question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell).

§ Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
Would the First Secretary not agree that the restraints on our national sovereignty which would flow from membership of the Common Market are certainly as nothing compared to those which the Government have already accepted as the price of dependence on regular "dollops" of foreign credit?

Hon. Members
Dollops?

§ Mr. Brown
I think that the elegance of the language is an elegant commentary in itself on the coherence of the question.

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that French sovereignty has been adversely affected by membership of the European Economic Community?

§ Mr. Brown
It would be hard to draw that conclusion.

§ 15. Sir T. Beamish
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs if he will propose the setting up of a joint working party to the Governments of the member countries of the European Economic Community to consider the degree of nationalisation of the United Kingdom economy that would be regarded as consistent with the spirit and the letter of the Treaty of Rome and the Treaty of Paris.

§ Mr. George Brown
No, Sir.

§ Sir T. Beamish
Since the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange is obviously contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Treaty of Rome, am I right in thinking from that reply that the right hon. Gentleman has had a great victory and persuaded his party secretly to drop Clause Four?

§ Mr. Brown
I have many victories, and most are very public. But if the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that he is helping affairs by trying to draw a conclusion that no country should be a member of the E.E.C. if it had nationalised anything, I wonder which country he thinks would belong to it at present.

§ Mr. Ridley
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in order to implement the Government's policy of taking the country into Europe it is necessary to educate, guide and help the country to accept this? Can he say why he has done so little about this in the two years he has held his present office?

§ Mr. Brown
If I have not done enough to satisfy the hon. Gentleman, I will have another look at my programme.

§ 19. Mr. Worsley
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs when Her Majesty's Government now expect to make a formal application to join the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. George Brown
That will depend on the outcome of the exploratory discussions that are now proceeding.

§ Mr. Worsley
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy is reported 652 to have talked of an extended period of exploration? Will he now give a serious and clear statement that he at least regards this as a matter of urgency?

§ Mr. Brown
If the hon. Gentleman will do himself the privilege of going to read the speech of my right hon. Friend, which is in the Library, he will see that he is drawing a wrong conclusion from it.

§ Mr. Molloy
Will my right hon. Friend give the House and the country an assurance that his examinations will go beyond the E.E.C. and involve Europe as a whole? Will he also assure the House and the country that what he is doing will be for the benefit of the nation and will be a proper study in depth and not an emotive rushing in as proposed by the party opposite?

§ Mr. Brown
It is clear that all I do is for the benefit of the nation. On the first part of the question—yes, we shall study this matter and we are doing so. That is why we are now conducting the probing exercise, and we shall, of course, make a balanced decision in the end. It will inevitably be a balance between one set of factors and another.

§ Mr. Iain Macleod
Would the right hon. Gentleman recognise that he has been asked many Questions on the E.E.C. today and has not given a single serious answer to one of them? Would he recognise that, in view of the special responsibilities which have been put on him, he owes a duty to the whole House now to explain in debate exactly what his and the Government's attitude is to this most important question?

§ Mr. Brown
I recognise that supplementary question. Indeed, I remember putting it to the right hon. Gentleman when our positions were reversed. That is normal practice. He knows very well, just as I do, that at this stage the kind of emotive things which he and his hon. Friends are trying to get out of me are exactly the sort of things which a Minister should not say.

§ Mr. Macleod
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that I did not ask for an emotive approach but for a cool and reasoned statement from him as to whether he is or is not discharging his duties?

§ Mr. Brown
There is no glory to be got out of that sort of question. The right hon. Gentleman will recall that a few moments ago when one of his right hon. Friends asked me a similar question—I think it was the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) who asked the question; he is nearly always first I said that the point would arise when one ought to have a debate or discussion about the situation which we had reached. I went on to say that, in the exercise of my duties, I did not regard this as that moment.

§ Mr. Ridley
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the end of the Session.

26. Mr. Edward M. Taylor
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what progress he has now made in his analysis and inquiry into the problems involved in economic negotiations concerning Great Britain's entry into the Common Market.

§ Mr. George Brown
A considerable amount of work is now in progress.

Mr. Taylor
As our entry into the Common Market would require major changes in the practices and performance of British industry, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it would help to publish at some stage the broad conclusions of this inquiry?

§ Mr. Brown
The hon. Gentleman said "at some stage". I have answered this question already. This must be the fourth time this afternoon that I have said that I do not regard this to be the lime to do that. The Government, unlike their Conservative predecessors, are going about this in the right way by having the right kind of study done.

§ 29. Mr. Fletcher-Cooke
asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what steps he is taking to ensure that no parts of the regional policy of Her Majesty's Government would conflict with obligations entered into by subscribing to the Treaty of Rome.

§ Mr. George Brown
This is one aspect of the general question of our possible entry into the E.E.C. which we have very much in mind.

§ Mr. Fletcher-Cooke
Does that reply mean that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with some of his right hon. and hon. Friends that there is some conflict in the matter? If he does not agree with them, would he say so quite clearly, because at the moment it is damaging our chances of making an early entry?

§ Mr. Brown
I do not accept the last part of the hon. and learned Member's supplementary question; I am not called upon to deal with the middle part, and, on the first part, my view is that there is no conflict between the Treaty of Rome and our regional policies, but it is an aspect of the whole problem that we have in mind.